The Ultimate DIY Rocks!

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AH #$%^@%^@@!!! Well as I said learning experience.
I didn't see any white sand at Home Depot, can I use crushed limestone in place of sand?
 
It depends on what kind of limestone it is. The stuff at HD will have high levels of quartz (silica) and heavy metals, while limestone from a farm supply store will be closer to pure calcium carbonate as it is used as a calcium supplement for chickens and other birds.

Calcium carbonate is chalky, while silica has a glassy sparkle. Dolomite is calcium carbonate with more magnesium. It's better than silica, but not as good as aragonite.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10536180#post10536180 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr.wilson
Sugar is a source of carbon, so is alcohol, but it would be a shame to waste good high test vodka "on the rocks". :)
Click to expand...

Is there such a thing as "good" vodka?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10536606#post10536606 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr.wilson
It looks like you used builders (brick sand) playsand and not aragonite (white, tropical) playsand. The stuff you used is quartz-based and had no buffering capacity, molecular absorption capability, and far less surface area (smaller pore matrix). Pour some acid (vinegar) on the sand and see if it fizzes. If it doesn't, then throw it away.

It also looks like your mix is too wet. That's why it's flat like a "cow pie". If your salt was too fine or you over-mixed it, the cement mix will become smooth and wet like that.
Click to expand...

I agree on the "too wet", but I thought we had all gotten over "it has to be aragonite"?

Remember, we agreed that most people aren't relying on rock to buffer, or don't care if it can, so we would not harp on what sand someone uses - calcium sand may be almost impossible for some to find, barring $40 at the LFS, and you go through quite a bit of sand to make a pile of rock. Grip that he used brown, not on his choice of materials, especially when really, there is nothing wrong with it - just not the "best" to use...

Pretty much any sand will do Izshocker - don't throw your sand away, unless you decide to do so yourself, because brown sand on grey looks really, really bad - not because Mr Wilson told you to...

Personally, I'd have just stuck to the pulverized limestone all the way around - it is a little more expensive, but the color is closer to the cements' own color and won't look so odd. Also, in the future, if you cover the rock with damp sand, they get more evenly layered in sand deposits and the damp sand will aid in reducing evaporation, and give you a better cure.

FWIW
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10536795#post10536795 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr.wilson
It depends on what kind of limestone it is. The stuff at HD will have high levels of quartz (silica) and heavy metals, while limestone from a farm supply store will be closer to pure calcium carbonate as it is used as a calcium supplement for chickens and other birds.
Click to expand...

I understand where you are coming from, and at one point agreed, but after seeing Travis's and his groups DSB's and the others who have used it, using the HD pulverized limestone, and hearing no reports of trouble, I've reversed my opinion.

Though the chick gravel is cheeper - and I can't get crushed limestone, so I use the chick grit.
 
Iz, on you're next batch, try adding a lot less water. When you use a lot of salt in the mix (3 parts), the dryer the mud, the easier the salt is to get out in the end - you will be forever getting the salt out of those babies. What you made would work pretty good for a sidewalk though :)

This might help you see what you are going for texture/moisture wise.

Sorry it is so orange - that is the best my digi can do in the garage under fluorescent lights...
 
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Choose your materials based on chemistry, biology, aesthetics, convenience and price. In that order.

All of these issues have been adequately covered within this thread.
 
Re: Late to the game....

Re: Late to the game....

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10536393#post10536393 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SNTLewis
Late to the discussion...

Fumed Silica is used in the composite industry to thicken resins. It can be obtained in smaller quantities from places like
West Marine, USBoat, etc.

Look for "collodial silica", or a tradename Cab-o-Sil.

comes in 1lb cans.
Click to expand...

Wonder if someplace if HobbyTown would have it for the RC boats?

Thanks for that info - good to have and probably easier to come by for most people.

I called 8 places, in a 75 mile radius on Friday, looking for powdered aluminum and micro-silica. One guy said that silica was a sand, and yeah, we got that - but I pointed out what I wanted was basically powdered silica, and he said folks don't use that in cement - sure you ain't wantin' a ceramics store? And no one had even heard of powdered aluminum...:rolleye1:
 
mr. wilson,

You can't make a blanket statement like that about HD's crushed limestone containing heavy metals and quartz without having something to back it up.

First of all, I doubt very seriously if the Pavestone brand of crushed limestone, which HD sells in Texas, Oklahoma and other surrounding states, ever makes it as far north as Ontario. It is mined, processed and bagged right here in north Texas. We have a huge number of natural and pure limestone deposits that are at or near the surface.

Second, it has been tried, tested and proven that this makes a good substrate by a large number of reefers in our area.

Not trying to be contentious, just dispel what I perceive to be a statement of unsubstantiated personal opinion rather than fact.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10536606#post10536606 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr.wilson
It looks like you used builders (brick sand) playsand and not aragonite (white, tropical) playsand. The stuff you used is quartz-based and had no buffering capacity, molecular absorption capability, and far less surface area (smaller pore matrix). Pour some acid (vinegar) on the sand and see if it fizzes. If it doesn't, then throw it away.

It also looks like your mix is too wet. That's why it's flat like a "cow pie". If your salt was too fine or you over-mixed it, the cement mix will become smooth and wet like that.
Click to expand...

What a joke.
Izshocker Don't throw away your rocks. Yes they may dry more solid than it is suposed to but it will be fine to use at the bottom of your pile. Use less water next batch.
As for buffering capacity it has been proven that by the time your rock is needed to provide buffering it is to late.
I have been using silica sand for my live rock, and it is plenty porous. No need to use anything diffrent.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10537506#post10537506 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bigtex
... the Pavestone brand of crushed limestone, which HD sells in Texas, Oklahoma and other surrounding states, ever makes it as far north as Ontario.
Click to expand...

Heck - it's never made it as far north as Missouri, lol.
 
I agree that this batch I'll be trying to get the salt out for months. I'm trying my hand at all this, to get the feel and get it down before I really need the rock. The tank, I putting together won't happen for months. It's a matter of stockpiling equipment & DIY rock till I have everything I want.

This bacth may already be destined to being broken up and being used in the sump or fuge.

I had the mix about that crumbly but it seemed to be turning very solid, really really fast on my, so i added more water, too much and then adding more cement, and then panicked and started slopping it into the sand.

Oh well, live and learn.

Thanks for the help guys and gals,

Israel
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10537506#post10537506 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bigtex
mr. wilson,

You can't make a blanket statement like that about HD's crushed limestone containing heavy metals and quartz without having something to back it up.

First of all, I doubt very seriously if the Pavestone brand of crushed limestone, which HD sells in Texas, Oklahoma and other surrounding states, ever makes it as far north as Ontario. It is mined, processed and bagged right here in north Texas. We have a huge number of natural and pure limestone deposits that are at or near the surface.

Second, it has been tried, tested and proven that this makes a good substrate by a large number of reefers in our area.

Not trying to be contentious, just dispel what I perceive to be a statement of unsubstantiated personal opinion rather than fact.
Click to expand...

Sure I can make that statement, and I'm happy to back it up. The umbrella term of "limestone" only means that at least 50% of the mineral content is calcium carbonate, so "pure limestone" doesn't mean a heck of a lot. The other 50% will vary according to geography and geology, quartz and heavy metals (also known as trace elements in the aquarium hobby) are a major part of this other 50% or less.

Home depot carries construction grade limestone or dolostone (more magnesium), not pure calcium carbonate. Take a look at it, you can see quartz in it. You can also see metallic veins and rust (iron) in some granules.

We're not talking about a lab grade mineral here. It's for paving and making concrete foundations and walls, not for human consumption.

All kinds of materials have been used for aquascaping and substrate. Plastics, lava rock, and silica are commonly used, but the success rates are much lower.

You can buy oolitic limestone from quarries in the Eastern USA. I'm not sure what they dig out of Texas, but I have dolostone on my property, and live a mile away from a quarry that has been mining it continually for over 50 years.
 
If it makes any difference to anyone, I'd agree not to use limestone (because of metal content) but don't see any problem with silicia based sand. It's been used for years & years in reefs.

I have about a thousand pounds of it in my system.

Carlo
 
If it makes any difference to anyone, I'd agree not to use limestone (because of metal content) but don't see any problem with silicia based sand. It's been used for years & years in reefs.

I have about a thousand pounds of it in my system.

Randy has a good article on it and even suggests it could be better for many people then argonite sand. Otherwise many people should probably test and dose silica when needed.

Carlo
 
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If they are using it locally in his area without issues then I am sure it is safe......However, Just like everything else... caveat emptor.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10537507#post10537507 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sunkool
What a joke.
Izshocker Don't throw away your rocks. Yes they may dry more solid than it is suposed to but it will be fine to use at the bottom of your pile. Use less water next batch.
As for buffering capacity it has been proven that by the time your rock is needed to provide buffering it is to late.
I have been using silica sand for my live rock, and it is plenty porous. No need to use anything diffrent.
Click to expand...

It's no joke. My suggestion was to add less water next time so the rock wouldn't turn out so flat. The video that IR posted was helpful in conveying this point as well. I made no mention of how solid the rock was.

I stand by my original "cowpie" comment. If this was the look that was desired, then I offer my apologies and respect individual preference. Some prefer white rock, while others prefer grey. The brown building sand will render a grey colour, not a brown colour as some would speculate.

I believe Izshoker took the "playsand" ingredient in the recipe as meaning any playsand, and not the "Southdown playsand" that is commonly used.

Your assessment of buffering capacity is based on calcite (crushed coral), not aragonite. Aragonite will not keep up to the demand for calcium in most reef tanks, but it offers bioavailable calcium, carbonates, magnesium, and trace elements (heavy metals) that are continually utilized.

Aragonite dissolves in water anywhere below 8.4 PH. The dissolution rate is diminished after bio-films cover the rock, but a localized acidity is generated by bacteria, freeing up minerals for their physiology.

Aragonite will buffer alkalinity and PH to NSW (natural sea water) levels without the need for chemical dosing in most cases. Dick Perrin at Tropicorium uses aragonite sand exclusively to buffer his water with no chemical dosing of any elements necessary. There are lots of studies to back these claims up.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/6/aafeature

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/7/aafeature
 
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