The Ultimate DIY Rocks!

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The stuff at HD has been being used for a while now as DSB by a lot of people. It has been pointed out that limestone (and this would be with any type of limestone - gravel, sand, chick grit, etc) may contain a small amount of metals - based on where the stone came from and what the stone has in it. Could there be enough to cause potential problems?
Unlikely, but not impossible.
Some brands of O.S. seem to have high concentrations of phosphates, while others do not. Even the cement itself is likely to contain some undesirable elements. Certain silica sands have been known to have metal in them as well.
Making rock is sort of a give and take, if you don't want to spend a fortune at the LFS, getting only "safe" materials - you just have to decide what you are comfortable with and what level of risk you are willing to take.

I haven't sprung for a big bag of perlite yet - I haven't had a chance to look some more, but the places I called for big bags were quoting me $23 for 4c.f., and I am not paying that. I'm on my second small bag of perlite.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10563850#post10563850 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr.wilson
I'm teasing the hardware store he works for.

PDH is a young guy working there part-time, so I don't expect him to know much about cement. The irony is, even the employees can't find someone to help them there.

I gave up asking for help in those places years ago, but you still have to chase those guys down when you need something cut. They are few in numbers, and very elusive. Their lack of a working knowledge of the products they sell is only topped by their ability to avoid eye contact. :)


Did I miss something?
Thank you for your help mr wilson
( I will see you at wheres the reef sometime to pick your brain!!)




So, who thinks they have the best recipe!
 
You've got to realize, PDH - Mr Wilson has been in the hobby as long as you have been alive.

We are most all of us young when compared to that ;)

EDIT: In reply to PDH's first reply, before he changed it, lol. Whereby he states he is 32, "Not that young!"
 
Doesn't this information I got from the Silica Fume association basically say that after hydration cement with Silica Fume added will have a lower pH than that without it in the mix? Mainly because the calcium hydroxide is not present?


As I posted earlier:
Water + Portland Cement = calcium silicate hydrate + Calcium hydroxide.........use CO2 during the cure and the calcium hydroxide becomes calcium carbonate.

Silica Fume + Portland Cement + Water = calcium silicate hydrate (CO2 is not necessary since calcium hydroxide is greatly reduced or gone)


Cayars has this been your experience? Were you able to get rocks reef ready in 7 days with Micro Silica?
 
Neptune Yes,

Out of mold, soak in warm water for 1 day to release salt, let stand a few days in open with a light spraydown of water to keep it moist. Sometimes I'll dunk the rock to wet it again. Depends on how much "exercise" I feel like getting. Nothing fancy.

Carlo
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10568404#post10568404 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Neptune777
Both true......but adding Calcium Chloride allows you to work in lower temps as well.

If you will check calcium chloride increases the speed of the initial set which is helpful during colder tempratures it does not lower the temprature range that the concrete can be poured in.

If the mix sets faster you can use it while the temps are at better part of the day so the concrete has a chance to set before colder weather can freeze it and damage the crystaline structure. Concrete can be poured in sub zero weather as long as there is a heat source to keep it above freezing until it has set.

This information is for structural concrete and the volume you pour determines how much of a heat source you will need. On non structural concrete like the rock you are making because of the small volume being cast poured freezing or very cold temps will greatly weaken the mix that isn't that strong to begin with. So keep it from freezing.


Robert
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10570639#post10570639 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
The stuff at HD has been being used for a while now as DSB by a lot of people. It has been pointed out that limestone (and this would be with any type of limestone - gravel, sand, chick grit, etc) may contain a small amount of metals - based on where the stone came from and what the stone has in it. Could there be enough to cause potential problems?
Unlikely, but not impossible.
Some brands of O.S. seem to have high concentrations of phosphates, while others do not. Even the cement itself is likely to contain some undesirable elements. Certain silica sands have been known to have metal in them as well.
Making rock is sort of a give and take, if you don't want to spend a fortune at the LFS, getting only "safe" materials - you just have to decide what you are comfortable with and what level of risk you are willing to take.


what level of risk are you(and I mean you in a general sense, to the folks to sell rock) :) willing to take if your rock is intended to be sold to the LFS?

IR forgive my ignorance, but can you elaborate on the risks? I mean if I use silica sand with some metals or some bad OC and some of those rocks are in my tank(maybe about 10%) is that going to kill my tank? Are the sorts of problems you mentioned things that can be managed in some sense and if you find out that your rock has one of those problems it has no use?

I guess that I will have to closely monitor how the rocks I have made affect water chemistry over a long period of time and find out what works best. I am a bit worried though, I don't want to save a few bucks now in making the LR and have my tank ruined down the road form a mistake on my part from choosing bad materials.



There is a quarry close to my house, I am going to go there and see what they offer. I live in Virginia in the blue ridge mountains, I wonder what kind of rock they have,
or if I could buy some of the rock or materials from that quarry as Mr. Wilson was saying in an earlier post. I have no idea though, if the material they have will be appropriate for MMLR.

IR, do you remember what page of this thread has the link you put for some recommended reading about concrete? I think I need to read some background info on concrete and rock to assist in my rock making. )

I also have a question for Mr. Wilson about rock walls: when using quikrete hydralic water stop cement for rocks walls, do you just apply the wet mix directly to the glass and it will bond safetly to the surface of the glass and you work the shape from there? Is it necessary to use any additive or adhesive or anything to ensure a tight bond to the glass?

I had a crazy idea also. I was thinking about DIY aquariums and about rock walls and I was thinking that if you were making a aquarium and you wanted to have a rock wall, is there any way to make the aquarium without all of it being glass? Could the back panel or back piece and side panels be concrete instead? It would be heavy but would it be possible? Concrete seems alot cheaper than acyrilic or glass.


okay one more thing, sorry for the long post. Does anyone use pvc shavings in their rock?
 
mmmm,

For the crazy backwall idea, you could use plywood behind the tank instead of glass or acrylic. Several people have made plywood tanks and they work great. I don't think you could have a cement only backwall, because you would need a lot of (thick) concrete to hold the water pressure plus the corners would tend to leak.

As for pvc shavings, many pages ago someone from GARF.org posted saying that PVC will eventually fall out of the rock and that they did not advise using pvc shavings. Although I believe a few people on here reported initial success with them.
 
eshook, if the concrete was reinforced would it need to really thick? I guess the corners leaking would foil that idea though. :) no haha I will use the leaking corners to get the water to a sump so I won't need a bulkhead jk :)
 
Yes you can certainly make an aquarium out of cement (reinforced) with viewing panels out of glass or acrylic. This is how the public aquariums and many large personal tanks are done.

I'm thinking of doing something similar in the spring. It would be an "add-on" to the house with glass roof to allow natural sunlight in to augment the halides.

Here's a thread with a few pictures of Joe's (Atlantis) 20K reef tank (30'x14'x6.5') with some buildout pics. You can see how it was poured and where the glass goes.

Carlo
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10574453#post10574453 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mmm55645
eshook, if the concrete was reinforced would it need to really thick? I guess the corners leaking would foil that idea though. :) no haha I will use the leaking corners to get the water to a sump so I won't need a bulkhead jk :)

It would have to be reinforced unless you were using the earth to support it like a pond or a pool. This would also depend on how much water you were going to have it contain. If you are only talking a few hundred gallons it would probably be cheaper to make it out of wood, glass, acrylic or fiberglass. If you are talking in the 1000's of gallons it would probably be cheaper in concrete. The strength of your materials must increase the deeper the water gets.

Cynder blocks filled with reinforcing steel and concrete attached to a poured slab would be good to uo to 7 feet but would need earth stabilization. The blocks would need to be coated with a material like the Quikrete Quickwall or shotcrete and then painted and epoxied.
The up to 7 feet rule comes from building swimming pools using cynder block. One of the ones I was checking out had a 8'X 10' viewing port built into it would have made a great reef tank. :D

Robert
 
Here are some updated pictures of the latest project.

IMG_7584.jpg


IMG_7600.jpg


IMG_7611.jpg
 
I apply the cement directly to the glass or acrylic. I tried the glue, but it just makes a mess of the tank as it dissolves over the following weeks.

Be careful with smaller tanks, as the fast setting cement mixes get very hot. The product I currently use gets warm, but not as bad as Water Stop. I've been doing tanks with 3/4" glass, so it can take the heat without cracking. Acrylic is easier to work with.

In the end, the concrete doesn't have to bond all that well. It just has to bond to itself. Gravity takes care of the rest. I used to score PVC to get a better bond, but it isn't necessary. Once it completely sets, the bond is very strong.

My first tanks growing up came with a slate bottom and glass walls. I made some small tanks a few years back with slate walls and a glass front. They turned out nice, a welcomed change from the usual stuff you see. Cement is no different.

The problem would be it would have to be at least 4" thick in order to assure it's water-proof. It would be easier to make it out of plywood with a cement coating. Alternatively, you could build it out of patio stones, or cement backer board (used for back-splashes and shower stalls) that are siliconed together, but you would still need at least two inches of parging (sealing) coat.

As far as impurity goes, it's a matter of personal standards. Some people are content with tap water, ABS pipes, unrinsed frozen foods, and egg-crate, while others are more strict with their control of impurities. I take some "chances" by using crushed oyster shell, as there are impurities introduced somewhere along the line. With a lot of projects I end up using Caribbsea products anyway because they're readily available and about the same cost as crushed oyster shell at a commercial level.

Environmental impact is a matter of degree. Any material used for aquascaping has some degree of detriment to the natural environment. Anthony Calfo goes as far as to say that manmade cement-based rock is more environmentally detrimental than the collection and shipping of live rock from the South Seas.

Limestone from an unknown source will contain unknown constituents. Heavy metals, being the major concern, but other toxins may be present as well. If you go directly to the quarry, they will know the exact composition of the rock, then at least you can make an educated decision whether to use it or not.

It appears that most people make their own rock to save money, but savings should be looked upon in the long run. It is my personal belief that rock that is not made with shell, aragonite, or calcite will not render a suitable replacement for live rock, unless it's used only to supplement live rock, or it has been inoculated in the ocean or mariculture facility.

Yes, lots of people are using silica sand, and crushed limestone in their tanks, but I haven't seen pictures or detailed reports, so I cannot comment on their level of success. It is my opinion that a tank made exclusively with non-calcareous rock, will yield the same results of a tank with plastic aquascaping.

It's only your personal measure of success and standards that will dictate the risks and materials you will use to fulfill your goals. With the investment you are putting into the entire aquarium project, it seems silly to make decisions based on $50.00 savings. Commercial producers may have a different perspective than a hobbyist.
 
Hi MMM :)
You don't believe in loaded questions, do you? LOL
I've been sitting here trying to determine how to answer this, and I think I will do it by example.

But first let me say a few things :)

Firstly, I can't speak for the others who make and sell, or plan to sell their rock. One would hope that we would all make rock that we ourselves would use in our tanks (see my backwall). So how they justify the materials vs risk is going to be unique to each person. I stress the risks to the LFS, and all have shrugged them off - they feel the chemicals, etc that we add to our tanks are a worse risk then the possible contaminates in the rock.
That being said...

We know that manufacturers of building materials, etc. have to list the properties of the product for safety issues. Metals are one that has to be listed, even in trace amounts. So reading the MSDS for any product you are considering is something you must do if you want to cover your butt. Failing a MSDS for that particular product (say limestone from a particular quarry), you can always contact the plant that makes the product and ask for the elemental breakdown of their product. If they won't share that info, move on to a different source. If you try to stick with things that are used for animals, you will have the fewest implied risks. But just because something is considered safe, doesn't mean it always is.
For example, much of the Caribbean beach sand and crushed coral sold in the hobby is shipped via barge or cargo ships. Let me tell you about my experience with something shipped via a cargo ship.
A few years ago, when I bought my pony, Storm Cloud, I needed to buy a saddle too. I had a couple of occasions to sit an Australian saddle, and really liked them. So I shopped around and decided to go with a place that imported them, as well as custom fitting the saddle to the horse's withers. I order the saddle in, wait a month for it and when I get it, I notice an odd smell. But the saddle looked good - great in fact and so I introduced the saddle to my untrained pony, and proceeded to start her training. About 2 weeks in, as we are doing some ground exercices, she spooks and totally freaks out. She is galloping like mad and bucking, and the saddle slips a bit to the side, which scares her even more. She hits the side rail of the corral and I hear a horrible sound - I'm sure my beautiful pony has broken something, but no, she keeps running and bucking and shows no sign of injury. I finally manage to get control of the situation, get her stopped and access the damage. My pony is fine, just scared, but my $700 saddle is trashed. I'm freaking out. I bring Storm to the barn and get the saddle off and after seeing to her, examine the saddle. The entire inside, the wood, the stuffing, everything is covered in mold and the wood was showing signs of rot. And you can see water stains on the leather on the inside of the leather. To make a longer story shorter, let's just say I contacted the seller, who made it right, but explained that the saddles ship by cargo ship from Australia, and go to a factor in NYC. Seems the factor thought that no one would notice a shipment of bilge-logged saddles, so he/she/they must have paid to have them surface cleaned and shipped them on to the saddle seller, who, thinking they are getting good wares, just stuck them in the warehouse until they ship to customers. The point of this story is to show that even when the materials are good, improper handling can ruin or contaminate them. A lot of shipments today are handled by independent truck drivers and cargo ships - these guys aren't cleaning their trucks and holds between loads of materials, or at least a lot of them aren't - they are just trying to get from "point a" to "point b" and get their money. And that doesn't even start to go into in plant contamination, what with lines breaking and possible chemical contact, etc.

What I'm trying to say, I guess, is that life is risk. I could die the next time I step outside. I might try a new product in my tank and nuke the whole thing. You just really never know. You find the best materials you think you can get within your budget, and move on with life. I'd be more worried about the RO/DI water that many of us buy from our LFS then I would about the possible contaminants in my MMLR. LFS are notorious for not changing filters regularly - not all, but quite a few are guilty of letting them go too long before changing them.

Ok, so on to the example.

Take a 10lbs MMLR rock, made to the Ol Skool recipe. In that 10lbs rock will be something close to 3lbs of cement, 2.5lbs of sand and 5lbs of "Other" - OS or CC. Now let's say that I used the worst possible (most contaminated) materials I could find. The cement, in all honesty is probably the most "dangerous" thing you will be using. The sands/grits may have trace elements that are unwanted, but if the MSDS doesn't list them, then they are so inconsequential as to be almost non-existent. Especially in light of us using 2.5lbs. Even if 1 full percent were present (and at that amount, they have to list it), you would be looking at a total of maybe 11 GRAMS of unwanted material. Plants across the world make their portland from what they can get either locally or cheaply, and this can vary from lot to lot within a plant, based on what is available. Now we know that some metals react with cement and are in essence, broken down or converted. Aluminum is one. Aluminum is toxic. Aluminum is present in all portland cements, in a fairly large portion - generally around 20% are aluminum compounds:
samplegraph.jpg

In this example, 20% would be about 272 GRAMS of Aluminum Compounds. However, the aluminum is somewhat converted in the hydration process, and rendered "safe".
And notice the "other" - *** is "Other"? Who knows. Could be slag from smelting, or just about anything else. Phosphates are often mined from the same locations as the other materials used to make cement, so phosphates could be a part of that "other".

Sands are easier to screen for impurities. Holding it in your hand and examining it will often tell you if you need to worry about that sand in particular. Look for darker/lighter bits in the sand that don't look like the sand itself. Sometimes a magnet will pick out them out if the metal is ferrous, but ferrous metals aren't really something I feel we need to worry about as they tend to corrode when in contact with cement and then are either incorporated into the cement matrix or can be flushed out somewhat in our water baths. So let's say again, that we figure 1 full % for impurities, and we get around 22 GRAMS. So all told, we are looking at close to 300 GRAMS, or just over half a pound of total possible contaminates. That does sound scary, I know, but these are numbers I'm pulling out of my butt, as most products we use don't list metals in their makeup, so one has to hope that that means they are present in such minute amounts that they make no difference. And then, the nature of the cement will "bind" much of the possible bad stuff, and some will be flushed in the kuring process.

If you are considering a product, use Google - it is your friend. See if others have used it in their tanks, fresh or salt - if it has been, chances are it is safe. For the most part, you can assume most stuff sold in the US, with a list of components that are safe, will be safe. And if you just can't shake the worry, then don't make your LR, purchase the real thing...

Seems the MMLR movement is older then I even knew - Paul B., a RC member, has been making rock since the 60's, and has a tank that has been going since the 80's. He made a lot of his rock and hasn't had problems. Many aquariums have been using MMLR and cement "shot-crete" to form the backbones of their displays, with no problems. If it makes you feel any better, I have never heard of a tank failing due to the MMLR - though I have heard complaints about nitrates and excessive algae growth; both of those can be as easily attributed to the hobbyist's habits, as it can the LR itself.

I've tried to answer this the best I can. I'm sure many will have things to say, or to add, or to contest, but really, I think we have enough to worry about in life, and this isn't really one of them, but is something one should be aware of.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10575529#post10575529 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr.wilson
It appears that most people make their own rock to save money, but savings should be looked upon in the long run.

You'd said this before, and got me thinking and wondering.
Actually, only about half the people now are making their rock to save money. I agree in the old days, before ready access to the internet, people made it to save money as LR prices where horrid, but now, prices are really reasonable.
I posted a poll just to see what the breakdown was.

I was curious. 6.85%
I wanted to be a responsible hobbyist and preserve the oceans. 10.96%
I wanted to save money. 49.32%
I wanted custom rock (shape,size,color,usage.) 32.88%
Total: 73 votes
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10574527#post10574527 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cayars
Yes you can certainly make an aquarium out of cement (reinforced) with viewing panels out of glass or acrylic. This is how the public aquariums and many large personal tanks are done.

I'm thinking of doing something similar in the spring. It would be an "add-on" to the house with glass roof to allow natural sunlight in to augment the halides.

Here's a thread with a few pictures of Joe's (Atlantis) 20K reef tank (30'x14'x6.5') with some buildout pics. You can see how it was poured and where the glass goes.

Carlo

Sorry about that (got a couple PMs). Here's an article (not thread) on Joe's reef tank. http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/2/aquarium

Carlo
 
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