The Ultimate DIY Rocks!

[Neptune777]

Rhodophyta:
No to be nit-picky but it would be nice if you could provide the documentation/studies that show Fe Oxide in large quantities not having an effect on corals in the aquarium. I'm not trying to argue but before I would jeopardize anyone's corals I would like to see tanks full of Fe oxide and thriving corals......before giving a thumbs up.

Where is Randy Holmes farley when we need him....sigh. I'm not a chemist so I don't know how much of a difference there is between regular Fe Oxide and Fe Oxide Hydroxide and what effects it would have on inverts...

 

[Insane Reefer]

I'm not sure Goldman. What Rhody has said makes sense.

I am leaning toward there not being an issue, so long as the kure water doesn't turn rust color. If it does, well, I don't know.

 

[goldmaniac]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10991309#post10991309 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Rhodophyta
Rust has problems that have nothing to do with the health of the fish and inverts in the system. It is orange and looks unattractive. Components like screws and pump shafts that could be a source of the rust in a tank would fail after producing rust and losing substance. Using iron oxide as a colorant should be no problem at all.

I don't know of any studies comparing differences in the behavior of iron oxide in open and closed systems. I'd be interested in the documentation for your statement, or let me know if it is opinion only.

No, no documentation. You? you have any documentation saying that iron oxide (not just the pigment) WON'T cause harm to inverts and fish? Because the burden of proof is on you; you're claiming a foreign substance won't harm the system. The starting (safe) assumption has to be YES until it's proven to be NO.

Of course there are other problems using metal in tanks. Of course it discolors a tank. We all know that screws etc would break down eventually with oxidation.

I don't know if we're even talking about the same thing; iron oxide in general vs. this pigment, which should reduce the level of iron oxide to minimal amounts. I could see the pigment going either way, either it'll bleed everything out while kuring in water, which is likely, or there will still be a slow release for months and years to come, which could be disasterous (sp?). And if there is a slow release, how much and how toxic in a closed system? I'm not sure and I don't know if there is anyone who is.

No need to jump on any comments, it's just a comment.

 

[goldmaniac]

self-correction:

I don't know if there's anyone who is... who has been on this forum.

on the other hand, iron pigment on man made live rock in a reef tank is a pretty specific situation, it might have never been tested (and documented) before.

 

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10991731#post10991731 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by goldmaniac
I could see the pigment going either way, either it'll bleed everything out while kuring in water, which is likely,

Not really - this is made to color cement - indoor or out, and from a friends experience using it for rocks in a water garden, it didn't bleed much...

or there will still be a slow release for months and years to come, which could be disastrous (sp?).

Again, not necessarily. Skimmers will pull it out almost as quickly as it would be produced, I'd think, at least from reading about dyed corals and the leech they put off. And according to WetWeb, the dye from corals won't hurt anything. Granted we are talking about different compounds, but a similar issue.


One thing to remember is that the MSDS did say Non-Toxic, and didn't give any environmental cleaning instruction as it would if there were a hazard. And you guys will also recall I suggested that MMM call Quikrete and ASK, and to try a test piece first, and to keep and eagle-eye on it and to post his findings...

I love google.
Not sure if this helps, but cement itself does contain small amounts of Iron Oxide:

According to professor P.K. Mehta's and P. Monteiro's book "Concrete", a typical cement contains these compounds (and their engineering names): calcium oxide, silicon dioxide, aluminum oxide, iron oxide, magnesium oxide, sulfate, water, 3*calcium silicate (three calcium atoms and one silicate) -- Called C3S 2*calcium silicate -- Called C2S. There are other compounds that are combos of the above. For example C3A, C2A...

I found this too, in reference to off-shore rigs:

Steel corrodes into iron oxide - What observations have been made about the increased iron oxide content at these sites, if any?And what are the consequences of the buildup?
This is a question that I have been asked many times, whenever the effects of reef longevity are analyzed. From experiences w/ our reef tanks we all know that iron can be a limiting element for growth of macroalgae, and such. When the platforms corrode, they certainly add iron to the surrounding water, in very small amounts, wrt the amount of water present. This could have a beneficial effect. The iron could also be used by the organisms attached to the platform, through active transport, similar to plants in soil.

We have all seen pictures of sunken ship reefs - wrecks that over the years have developed reefs on or around them, and the same thing happens around oil rigs too. I would think that if iron oxide were harmful to marine life in higher concentrations, you would not see these new reefs appearing...

Just a thought...

 

[SWINGRRRR]

impur, looks good.
Are my eyes playing tricks on me, or is that a 2 sided cave at the top?

 

[Insane Reefer]

Ok, you had to push me Goldman - just the thing to do to a bi-polar on a rapid cycling day, lol.
Now I am obsessed...

Google. My friend.
I found this - not saltwater, but fresh, but the chemistry is sound, I think, from what I'm reading elsewhere.

In the form of compounds, such as oxides, they are inert and not free for metabolic uptake. For example water conditioners which 'detoxify' heavy metals actually bind them into compounds which cannot be absorbed by the fish

In water of neutral or alkaline pH heavy metals normally remain locked into such compounds and remain inert.

Acidic water (pH less than 7) on the other hand activates these metals and renders them potentially dangerous.

Iron, the commonest of all metals, is normally present in nature in the form if iron oxide, i.e. rust. It follows that if you have rocks containing iron, betrayed by rusty streaks and patches, it will not normally present a chemical problem for your fish since the rust, iron oxide, is inert, However, if there is enough rusty material it will discolor your water, so rocks that are heavily 'rusted' should not be used. A few patches or spots of rust here and there on rocks is not a problem.

If you consider that the rotor of every pump motor in your tank is a cylinder of pure ferrite (magnetic iron powder sintered with strontium, barium, etc.) rotating at high speed on a steel spindle in constant contact with the water and at a temperature above the tank ambient (i.e. perfect conditions for chemical reactions) you can see that there is little need to worry about a few rust stains on rocks.

You may have heard about the problem of iron toxicity for wild fish, particularly in northern North America and Scandinavia. Without going into too much detail, the problem is mainly related to the activation of iron toxicity by low pH water during Spring snow melt and runoff, conditions you will not have in your tank-but see below.

One could also simply purchase an iron test kit to be safe - little to no iron should be good to go, right?
http://www.hach.com/hc/search.product.details.invoker/PackagingCode=2745325/NewLinkLabel=Iron+(Fe),+Test+Strips,+25+Tests

 

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10992159#post10992159 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SWINGRRRR
impur, looks good.
Are my eyes playing tricks on me, or is that a 2 sided cave at the top?

This struck me as odd.

Wouldn't a "two sided cave" be an "arch"?

:clown:

 

[Rhodophyta]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10991355#post10991355 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Neptune777
Rhodophyta:
No to be nit-picky but it would be nice if you could provide the documentation/studies that show Fe Oxide in large quantities not having an effect on corals in the aquarium. I'm not trying to argue but before I would jeopardize anyone's corals I would like to see tanks full of Fe oxide and thriving corals......before giving a thumbs up.

Where is Randy Holmes farley when we need him....sigh. I'm not a chemist so I don't know how much of a difference there is between regular Fe Oxide and Fe Oxide Hydroxide and what effects it would have on inverts...

Not to be nitpicky either but the topic is traces of iron oxide colorant embedding in aragocrete. I also said this one example of mine that caught your eye among the other examples, was a marine tank, not a reef tank and described the artificial coral and sponges constructed on the dolocrete rock.

As far as inverts, those inverts capable of sustaining clownfish larvae, such as rotifers etc., were growing quite well in the tank's refugium/filtration tank, enough to sustain a portion of each clownfish spawn to about 3/4" before they were observed and moved to a grow-out tank. There would not have been enough light or other condition in this tank to support coral growth, but there were a variety of inverts growing in the refugium parts of the system. An article about this appeared in the Drum & Croaker twenty years ago, so it is nothing new. I believe the article title was something like this, "An Accidental Propagation of Clownfish". The tank was one of the display tanks at the Cleveland Aquarium which closed shortly afterward awaiting a new building because of structural problems with the old one -- including a roof made of a deteriorating composite material, and asbestos through out the building. The fish were temporarily housed in the local zoo. Temporary has turned into about twenty years now.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-11/rhf/index.php

This is an article about by Randy Holmes-Farley about iron oxide hydroxide.

 

[Rhodophyta]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10992273#post10992273 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
This struck me as odd.

Wouldn't a "two sided cave" be an "arch"?

:clown:

It would be an arch or a tunnel, depending on some unknown definition. My favorite would be it's an arch if you can get cell phone reception in it. :lol:

 

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10992380#post10992380 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Rhodophyta
It would be an arch or a tunnel, depending on some unknown definition.

My husband just said the same thing - "Or a tunnel?"

Wonder if it is a weird pseudo phallic gender thingy going on? Males think "Tunnel", females think "Arch"?

Hmmm...

 

[SWINGRRRR]

CAVE- as in theres an end to it!!
Look at the pics real close. Seems like the top has a )( to it.

 

[impur]

Its a cave with 2 openings people!!! LOL

Thanks for the comments, i think it turned out well

 

[Insane Reefer]

LOL

I said I thought it was odd - but I'm an odd bird.

I think it came out well too.

Later tonight I will post some pictures. I'm getting better

 

[kraze3]

LOL I hit the motherload. Went into a contractor supply store today to order some forms to build a foundation for my next job and they have about 15-20 different kinds or portland cement in there. wooo hooo now I can get just about any kind I want. I dont really like the white but there were a ton of different I/II types. So any suggestions?

 

[Insane Reefer]

Awesome, Kraze! I keep telling you folks to try the specialty stores - you'd be surprised at what you'll find...

If I could pick any cement I wanted at the cement candy shop, I'd pick "Type V" (high sulfate resistance), "Type MS"(moderate sulfate resistant ), "Type HS" (high sulfate resistant), or "Type IIA" (air-entrainment).

 

[SWINGRRRR]

I don't think I have have any concrete specialty stores around me. Besides, I asked at Lowes for type III, the guy told me they don't make type III. Only I/II. Imagine, $6.50/hr wasted.

 

[Insane Reefer]

Really pleased with most of these
http://s186.photobucket.com/albums/x176/Insane-Reefer/rocks/

 

[tankslave]

I'm finding that the problem with much of the DIY rock is that it is not very porous, and hence not very good (at least all the recipes that I've tried). I'm not looking for "holey" rock, there's plenty of that, but truly porous, something that will colonize anaerobic bacteria.

 

[SWINGRRRR]

Insane, what are you using to mold them? Sand. I like how tall they are. I am having difficulty finding filler material. The rock salt is $5/40lbs bag. Id probably need 10 bags to fill up the Steralite Tub I have.