The Ultimate DIY Rocks!

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Perlcrete Anyone?

Perlcrete Anyone?

I've been working with the perlcrete for several months now, and wanted to see if anyone else had. I know Neptune was using it, but wondered if anyone else had too?

I wanted to ask if anyone else is finding Perlcrete to be ridiculously easy to Kure?
 
I cannot believe the length of this thread, i followed it back to the original post in March of 06! this is the most informative and well researched thread i ever had tha pleasure to read... altho my head is still dizzy after 4 hours of selective reading
 
leaves and live framing

leaves and live framing

IR, I am going to be using some perlite soon and making some new batches.

I am going to post a picture of a rock that has been(or atm appers to have been) successfully changed from grey to brown by water curing it in leaves.

I am going to do some experiments with other kinds of leaves to see what happens.

Anyone else use leaves to change the color? I can't remember who was talking about it earlier in the thread.


does anyone create rocks with pvc pipe inside so that the plumbing can be hidden inside the rocks? I was reading a magazine about this and I was trying to work out how to hide two powerheads(or other plumbing) and still be able to service the equipment.

Is the easiest way to do it coating an internal overflow box and plumbing with quick setting cement instead of building the rocks the slow way with plumbing inside or built to hide it?
 
Re: leaves and live framing

Re: leaves and live framing

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11421612#post11421612 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mmm55645
IR, I am going to be using some perlite soon and making some new batches.

I am going to post a picture of a rock that has been(or atm appers to have been) successfully changed from grey to brown by water curing it in leaves.

I am going to do some experiments with other kinds of leaves to see what happens.

Anyone else use leaves to change the color? I can't remember who was talking about it earlier in the thread.


does anyone create rocks with pvc pipe inside so that the plumbing can be hidden inside the rocks? I was reading a magazine about this and I was trying to work out how to hide two powerheads(or other plumbing) and still be able to service the equipment.

Is the easiest way to do it coating an internal overflow box and plumbing with quick setting cement instead of building the rocks the slow way with plumbing inside or built to hide it?
Click to expand...

I have used oak leaves for a couple years. I chose them because of the tannic acid in them, but took no steps to prevent other trees from volunteering their leaves to my leaching vat.

The reptile people do something like that with hollow rocks, but theirs are lighter and thinner than ours. You could try it. Even if at the worst, the equipment doesn't work out, you'd still have a useful rock with some useless plumbing hidden in it.
 
Cool, MMM - love the pictures :)

As far as plumbing goes, yes, lots of folks have hidden plumbing with rockwork. Mr Wilson is probably the most experienced on the thread, but one thing you can do is to make the covering in two parts. The first cover the permanent pipes, and cover over partially, the powerheads. Then after it sets, lay a piece of plastic over what you have and form a "cap" or "lid" - this way you can just lift that and pull the 'heads easier. Basically you are making a hollow holding cell for the powerhead...
HTH
 
Hello there, I recently voulunteered to give a presentation about man made live rock for my local reef club (MARS). I want to thank Insane Reefer and Travis Stevens for their input while I put together my presentation. You both made my job so much easier!

I made a video version of my presentation (audio is a little quiet) and I give more of an Old skool rocks formula (There are other methods), but I do also touch on what happens to the rock after we put it into our tanks.

Enjoy.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-637561203102920820
 
not really. The curing process is the result of internal chemical reactions that take a month to complete. The Jiffy rock method is supposed to work to speed the cure process up, but nothing else so far.

All acid does it etch the exterior of the rock. Great for cleaning the rock, useless to speed cure times.
 
Hi Shelburn, Welcome to the Thread :wave:

What Airin said :)

But if you are still curious...
A weak acid bath works really well to quickly neutralize the pH of fully cured rock, but until the chemical reactions have slowed to almost nil, the pH will continue to build until it reaches "dangerous" levels and starts to leech again. And acids aren't really "good" for cement to begin with - they tend to attack the cement at the molecular level and in some extreme cases can cause rock failure. Acid should be used little and in weak concentrations, or not at all - and only on rock that has completed or neared the completion of its cure phase, and never as a replacement for curing.
 
Here is part of the written version of my presentation. Everyone should feel free to use any part of this,
just please mention the source.

In order to demonstrate the colonization of aragocrete by various bacteria,
I took some pieces of aragocrete, Fiji liverock and premium Fiji liverock and split them open.

<a href="http://s154.photobucket.com/albums/s255/airinhere/?action=view&current=DSCN0595_edited.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s255/airinhere/DSCN0595_edited.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Looking at the aragocrete, it is in its fourth month right now and has a small amount of coraline algae growing on it.
There is still green algae showing on it and when turned upside down,
you can clearly see the numerous feather dusters growing on its shaded side.
<a href="http://s154.photobucket.com/albums/s255/airinhere/?action=view&current=DSCN0596_edited.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s255/airinhere/DSCN0596_edited.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

When I split this open, I found a very thin layer of the rockwork has discolored.
I was puzzled about this at first.
I also noticed that the rock had only a small amount of discoloration inside it.
Of course the fact that anything has started to grow inside this rock is a good sign.

<a href="http://s154.photobucket.com/albums/s255/airinhere/?action=view&current=DSCN0599_edited.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s255/airinhere/DSCN0599_edited.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

The Fiji Liverock had been in my tank about a year.
<a href="http://s154.photobucket.com/albums/s255/airinhere/?action=view&current=DSCN0601_edited.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s255/airinhere/DSCN0601_edited.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

It has partial coverage of coraline algae and still has some green algae present.
The shaded side has a substantially more developed community of feather duster worms and even some sponges.
<a href="http://s154.photobucket.com/albums/s255/airinhere/?action=view&current=DSCN0602_edited.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s255/airinhere/DSCN0602_edited.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

When I cracked this open, I found it had very little coherent internal structure.
Much like a balloon that was deflated and wadded up into a ball.
The small areas holding it together did have obvious amounts of gray material in the pores of the rock.

<a href="http://s154.photobucket.com/albums/s255/airinhere/?action=view&current=DSCN0603_edited.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s255/airinhere/DSCN0603_edited.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

The premium Fiji rock I observed has almost 100% coraline coverage and substantial amounts of sponges growing in it.
It also has corals growing on it.
This rock has been in my tank for a year and came from a reefer who had it in their tank for five years.
<a href="http://s154.photobucket.com/albums/s255/airinhere/?action=view&current=DSCN0605_edited.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s255/airinhere/DSCN0605_edited.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

When I cracked this piece of rock open,
I found it had the same camel colored film growing within its pores that was present in the aragocrete
and covering the skin of the aragocrete.
<a href="http://s154.photobucket.com/albums/s255/airinhere/?action=view&current=DSCN0606_edited.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s255/airinhere/DSCN0606_edited.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Sponge growth, mollusks and worms were also very obvious to observe.
This is what I visualize when I think of live rock.

<a href="http://s154.photobucket.com/albums/s255/airinhere/?action=view&current=DSCN0607_edited.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s255/airinhere/DSCN0607_edited.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11430210#post11430210 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by shelburn61
Can you speed up the curing process by soaking in a vinegar/muriatic acid solution?
Click to expand...
No, this will interrupt the curing process and release lots of alkalinity that should have been permanently bound by the curing process into the structure of the rock. Once the rock is cured, you can use an acid to neutralise surface alkalinity, basically just to clean it off. The confusion may be from the curing of real live rock where it's soaked for a while. Curing of aragocrete happens in the air while the surface is kept misted, or kept humid by loosely wrapping it with plastic sheets. Soaking interrupts the curing process in aragocrete, and unlike the curing of live rock, is just a cleaning/leaching process. One way to stop the release of alkalinity by recently cured aragocrete is to add ammonia to the soak. This encourages the growth of beneficial bacteria on the surface of the rock, and seals the surface. If you remember the high school science vinegar test to distinguish visually similar types of quartz and calcite, you are supposed to break the rocks to expose fresh surface. This is because the surface has been sealed by bacteria and depleted of surface alkalinity that could react with the vinegar. Of course using ammonia anywhere sharing an air circulation with aquariums is a no-no. This must be done totally away from set up aquariums.
 
Live rock performs a critical role for filtration in our tanks.
Surprisingly, not all live rock is created equal.
The Fiji rock I opened up betrayed its almost useless nature.
The dark gray material coming out of its core is likely the decaying remnants of the
(once living) beneficial worms and bacteria that used to occupy this rock.
Overzealous curing processes doom many pieces of Live Rock to this useless fate.

In contrast, the Premium live rock I split had a healthy and thriving population of
bacteria, sponges and micro fauna.
It also gives me a useful reference for what to desire from my aragocrete.

Aragocrete does not work exactly like live rock does.
Over time, the boring of algae and worms will eventually
transform aragocrete into a similar structure to the Premium live rock.
In the meantime, the many small cavities that form the outer skin of the rock
provide a useful place for different bacteria to colonize.
These are aerobic (requiring oxygen) bacteria and
anerobic (requiring little to no oxygen) bacteria.
Surprisingly, these two can be in very close proximity to one another
despite having very different needs. The reason for this is the porosity of the aragocrete.
Aragocrete allows water to diffuse through it,
but almost completely stops direct movement through its outer skin.
You can observe this by slowly pouring a glass of water onto a piece of aragocrete.
Water will literally flow through the rock. Because the rock is permeable,
fresh water does reach all parts of the inside of the aragocrete,
but its oxygen content is used up quickly by the outer bacteria
since its internal flow is so miniscule. Over time, the presence of
worms and sponges would increase the depth where denitrification would occur,
but it starts right on the outer surface in a millimeter thick layer.

To put it simply, the outer 'skin' of aragocrete does the denitrification.
The more surface area you have, the better it should work.

<a href="http://s154.photobucket.com/albums/s255/airinhere/?action=view&current=DSCN0600_edited.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s255/airinhere/DSCN0600_edited.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

aragocrete development
Diatoms
<a href="http://s154.photobucket.com/albums/s255/airinhere/?action=view&current=DSCN0691_edited.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s255/airinhere/DSCN0691_edited.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Green algae
<a href="http://s154.photobucket.com/albums/s255/airinhere/?action=view&current=DSCN0689_edited.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s255/airinhere/DSCN0689_edited.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Starting to get coraline
<a href="http://s154.photobucket.com/albums/s255/airinhere/?action=view&current=DSCN0692_edited.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s255/airinhere/DSCN0692_edited.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Bingo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<a href="http://s154.photobucket.com/albums/s255/airinhere/?action=view&current=DSCN0685_edited.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s255/airinhere/DSCN0685_edited.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
 
Thanks for posting the pictures, Airin and a recap of the presentation. Seeing the pictures in detail helps :)

Well said, Rhody.

I'm still more comfortable getting a good carbonation layer to "seal" the cement, which I think gives the bacteria a better foothold to begin with, though bacteria do change their environment somewhat, to suit their needs as far as pH and like things go. So maybe it is six of one and half dozen of another.

A question though - you say to add ammonia to the soak, to encourage beneficial bacteria. Is this added to the kure water (that is how I read it)? And if this is so, well, won't those freshwater bacteria die off when the rock goes into saltwater? If so, I'm not sure that I see the point?

Am I missing something? I could be, lol, 36 hour insomnia binge underway here, so the synapses aren't all firing...
 
Hey Shelburn :)

Cement/concrete blocks usually are fine - give them a brief, weak acid bath or soak in FW for a week or so before using and you should be ok. Do a google search on the RC domain for "Concrete block" or "Cement block".
Beware Cinder blocks though. Not sure if these are still sold in the US, but they usually contain actual cinders, and I'm not sure that would be good.

Alternatively, if you want large pieces, you can make them hollow by making a form. I've have great luck with plastic bags, balloons and bubble wrap. This is the form from my most ambitious project:
125181DIY1.jpg


So what were you thinking of doing?
 
I've seen them using cinder blocks in aquariums (including large public ones) for sometime. Cinder blocks are usually very porous and make for a good home for your bacteria...
 
Are you sure they are cinder blocks and not the concrete type, Tankslave? They do look almost identical (unless you can get right up on it, before life is growing on it, or lift it for weight) and most people use the term "cinder block" for all blocks without realizing that there is even a difference. I thought that should be addressed to avoid possible confusion.

Moisture causes deterioration of cinder block - this is a known fact in the construction industry, so in building it is used primarily for interior rather than exterior walls. I would imagine that this would be an even worse problem for the more corrosive saltwater. Certainly it takes a while, but I don't know how long it would be before your base started to disappear.

Coal cinders are also known for their outstanding ability to absorb (and slowly release) organics, another reason I don't think cinder blocks would be a good choice for a reef aquarium - you really don't want your base absorbing organics, and later releasing these back into the system.

And I'm not positive how coal cinders and activated carbon differ, but carbon, after about a week of use in a saltwater tank, starts to strip things like trace minerals, so this might be another issue.

All in all, it seems to me that cinder blocks would not be the block of choice in the reef aquarium. I could be wrong - sometimes I am on stuff like this, but my gut tells me this is a problem waiting to happen.

Unless I see something from a public aquarium or research facility, stating that they are using real cinder block and it seems that they do realize the difference (and aren't just using the term cinder because they think it is the right name for what they are using) and do in fact have cinder block, I would be leery of using it. I of course can't tell anyone what to do, but I would avoid cinder blocks and use concrete blocks instead.

:)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11431254#post11431254 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
Thanks for posting the pictures, Airin and a recap of the presentation. Seeing the pictures in detail helps :)

Well said, Rhody.

I'm still more comfortable getting a good carbonation layer to "seal" the cement, which I think gives the bacteria a better foothold to begin with, though bacteria do change their environment somewhat, to suit their needs as far as pH and like things go. So maybe it is six of one and half dozen of another.

A question though - you say to add ammonia to the soak, to encourage beneficial bacteria. Is this added to the kure water (that is how I read it)? And if this is so, well, won't those freshwater bacteria die off when the rock goes into saltwater? If so, I'm not sure that I see the point?

Am I missing something? I could be, lol, 36 hour insomnia binge underway here, so the synapses aren't all firing...
Click to expand...
I dislike the "kure" label. It's not because I majored in English, but because it really does not clear up the confusion it was coined to clear up. Soaking, cleaning, neutralizing, leaching, are all better words for the post-cure process.

While the same beneficial bacteria may be in both fresh and salt water to some extent, it would make sense to match the soaking bath to the intended target.... fw bath for fresh water, saltwater for saltwater. I think the bacteria don't die off in a change from salt to fresh or vice versa as much as they stop growing, like transplant shock in a plant, then take off again as they adapt. I have moved some rocks between fresh and salt and noticed no problems, but it still seems like it would help to have matching salinities.
 
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