The Ultimate DIY Rocks!

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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11436646#post11436646 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Rhodophyta
I dislike the "kure" label. It's not because I majored in English, but because it really does not clear up the confusion it was coined to clear up. Soaking, cleaning, neutralizing, leaching, are all better words for the post-cure process.
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I agree, Rhody, but the term "cure" has been in use for over 15 years, as pertains to leeching, cleaning, nuetralizing, etc. Another reason I feel the earlier pioneers of MLR didn't know much about cement itself - or they would have realized that they were using a word that is already in use in the cement industry. When I coined "kure", it was to try to help clear the air so that there would be some way to distinguish between the term.

While the same beneficial bacteria may be in both fresh and salt water to some extent, it would make sense to match the soaking bath to the intended target....
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Yes, that was my thinking.
:)
 
If the cure/kure confusion has been going on for 15 years, it is high time to stop it. I'm sure people have made mistakes because of the misunderstanding encouraging impatience and missteps. They will continue to make mistakes, but at least if we clean up the terminology, it will be because they choose to.

I'm not so sure that the aragocrete pioneers were ignorant of concrete terminology. They may have just wanted to use the terminology of live rock.

After our rocks have set, hardened chemically to a point we can call them cured, we have to clean them off, then naturalize them with a soak that encourages the growth of first bacteria, then hopefully the right algae, sponges, worms, etc. If we want short cuts, then ones that work, like resins instead of portland cement are proven, should be considered.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11437751#post11437751 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sunkool
I think you need to reread Insane's post.
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I took your suggestion to re-read Insane. You are right. In a way. Maybe I should have been more adamant about the harm the "kure" silliness has done. Compounding the confusion of some aquarists seeking an alternative to buying live rock that has to be collected, or at least seeded and harvested, from the world's oceans. As a result, causing aquarists to rethink their Green sensibilities. Or drastically scale back their reef tank aspirations.

However I've observed when anyone questions the "kure" stupidity very much, an irrational defense of an indefensibly dumb and embarassingly silly idea takes away from the positive themes in the thread. Fortunately, unlike some other bad ideas that seem to never go away, the "kure" phenomenon has been fading of late. A Google search relegates it mostly to rock bands and rock concerts. So maybe I was right in my first reading and it is high time to banish this silly linguistic skeleton from the saltwater closet.
 
LOL :)
However I've observed when anyone questions the "kure" stupidity very much, an irrational defense of an indefensibly dumb and embarassingly silly idea takes away from the positive themes in the thread.
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I didn't realize that there was any real question about "kure" - until now. I have noticed that since I started the "cure" vs "kure", there seems to be less over all confusion, at least on this thread. Most folks at the time thought it was a good idea - better then using "cure" and "cure" in the same sentence when describing two completely different processes.

I've already said that I agree with Rhody, but it is sort of hard to get this hobby to accept change, and kure has caught on - my google search shows over 7000 returns for :
kure cement rock -"kure beach" (seems there is a beach names Kure, lol).
Many of these aren't about DIY rock, but many are...

But I certainly don't think that this terminology is going to cause people to not make rock, esp when they can ask one simple question on half a dozen different reef forums and get it straightened out.

Personally, if I could wave a magic wand and make the change, right now, I'd use "Neutralization Bath", but since most of the "big guns", like GARF and Tom Miller and others all use "cure" in their articles, I think it might cause even more confusion in the long run...

EDIT:
And only the term "cure" has been used for as long as I've been making rock (probably a lot longer then that).
I coined "kure" the summer before last, because there was a lot of confusion. Someone would write "How long does it take to cure the rock?" How to answer them? Did they mean the hardening process "cure" (which has been in use in the cement industry, forever), or did they mean "cure", the baths required to bring the pH down? That came up a lot. Most folks where asking about the bath, but one couldn't just assume (two completely different answers for those questions) - you had to clarify. We don't have to clarify this hardly at all anymore....
 
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I am using my rock for about a month and everything seems fine. I wish I had enough time and space to make a big piece that will cover the back of the tank including the overflow box and closed loop pipes, that would be awsome.
I have 0 nitrates, I couldnt test the phosphates but I am having some hair algae problem. I dont know if its related with the rock in any way.
 
I think Insane and "Rhodo" agree on this and other topics more than it may appear sometimes. I was really surprised that the "Kure" term showed up 15 years ago, so it's good that it didn't. I looked over the first three pages of my Google search without finding one site related to the aquarium hobby, but there were many many more pages, and there could be thousands of matches farther on down on less popular sites.

Remember our current "pioneers" are popularizers. That is not a bad thing at all. If you don't find a way to popularize something, it stays unknown or provincial, like the Hamburg filter. Or like the wet/dry filter that was introduced in the 1940's, failed to get interest then or on its reintroduction in the 60's. It took the '80's to popularize it.

Some of the examples of aragocrete I saw in the 70's and 80's were twenty or thirty years old when I saw them. In the early 70's I helped remove old dolomitic concrete, what we'd call aragocrete or dolocrete today, from a 5000 gallon tank. We broke it up and I got some of it and had it in freshwater tanks and saltwater tanks and outside in a rock garden for the next 30+ years. Still have it, although it's impossible to see much of the original surface treatments that faked corals and sponges and tube worm cases. The texture and form may not all be eroded away but the coloring is gone. But popularizing can be harder than inventing and developing. It was smart or some might say shrewd to use the terminology of live rock with the artificial forms of live rock. The earlier versions of aragocrete were intended to create the appearance of an undersea habitat. Keeping live rock for live rock's sake didn't start until when, Eng in the 60's? so it wasn't until much later that the idea of aragocrete being able to sustain life forms from live rock took hold. Our curent pioneers made and continue to make great contributions to the hobby. But it is true that they built upon the contributions of those who came before.
 
(50s radio announcer voice) We stand upon the shoulders of Giants.
What else can we koin? two part cure, rock n organic? Rcure and Ocure?
 
Hey Rusty :)
LOL
How about "MLR" instead of "MMLR"?
When I say that I make "Man-Made Live Rock", inevitably, someone pipes up, "But you're a woman - shouldn't it be Woman-Made Live Rock?"

So I've started calling it Manufactured Life Rock.

Oh! And Sunkool - how did the smoker work? Did you ever get around to smoking your rock? If so, tell us how that went, if you would :)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11441370#post11441370 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ozadars
I have 0 nitrates, I couldnt test the phosphates but I am having some hair algae problem. I dont know if its related with the rock in any way.
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Hello to you in Turkey, Ozadars!
Sorry your post got lost in the shuffle - but I finally remembered that I had read your post, and thought I'd let you know you weren't completely forgotten, lol!

I don't remember the particulars for your tank - if in fact I ever knew them. Is this a new tank (less then a year)? If so, you just might be getting maturation algae. Is it growing on the MRL or the Real Live Rock? Do you use RO/DI water? If so and you don't tend to over-feed, I wouldn't bother testing phosphates (some LFS will test for you - some for free, some will charge a few bucks), though it could be organics in the water as well. And cement varies from plant to plant and from country to country, so it is possible that there is something in your cement that the algae really likes. Could be other stuff too.
However, get a few more algae eaters, control organic input and maintain H2O parameters, and it should go away, given time.

How about a picture? :D
 
Gary marzchack's (sp) tank of the month, had cinderblocks in it. I don't know if it's actual cinder or not but it definitely was what basements in all of New York are made of and is readily called "cinder block". If you were to go into Lowes or Home Depot and purchased a cinder block, this is what Gary had in his tank for years and years, maybe even a decade. I hope he finds this and chimes in.

BTW, I like the term Kure.
 
Hey Kent :) Welcome to the thread! :wave:

As said, a lot of folks don't know that there is a difference (I myself didn't until about a year ago), and many call all blocks cinder blocks simply because that is what they heard someone else call it at some point (that's what my daddy called them).

And I am sure that some folks have used actual cinder blocks in their reefs, but cinder blocks do tend to deteriorate, and for use in exterior building purposes, most contractors had stopped using them in the 70's and 80's, unless the construct was on the upwards side of a grade. That is enough to make me not want to use or recommend anyone using actual cinder blocks in a reef.

I've also been reading that cinder blocks haven't been mass produced in 50 years or so. I'm trying to substantiate this - Googling for manufacturers is bringing up hits, but when you go to them, it talks about CMU, or concrete blocks, or if the term cinder block is used, it is used as a "catch all" for hits, or is even mistakenly used for CMU's. And the last time I bought some blocks for my yard, Lowes only had concrete blocks.

I think this is something that Rhody and I can agree to get peeved over - the confusion between cinder and concrete blocks. :)

Interesting link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinder_block
 
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what cement did they use on the show Dirty Jobs with those reef balls they made? They said it has a PH marine grade cement. It would be nice to get some of that!!!
 
Hi Frazier, Welcome to the thread! :wave:

I haven't seen the "Dirty Jobs" you reference, but I do know that marine grade cement is generally "Type V" which is difficult to find unless you are on a coast (or maybe a desert). But you might be able to find "Type LH/SR", "Type MS", or "Type HS", which are also resistant to sulfate attack. "Type II" is the next best type, but "Type I" works too.
Basically, look for low magnesium cement - that's the main thing that makes these cement "sulfate resistant" - that and things like fly ash or micro-silica....

Micro-Silica is known for "binding" the alkalinity of cement, and Reef Balls does use it. Cayars and Neptune both use it as well.
I am not fond of it for two reasons. One, the rocks made with micro-silica are extremely dark - almost black IME. Two, micro-silica works because it sort of fills the pores and capillaries of cement, which are an important part of water transport through cement, as well as providing even more area's for bacteria to populate.

Some feel that micro-silica does more good than harm, but I tried a couple of batches and didn't see enough difference to make it worth the money or the effort involved in finding it - but some people do swear by it, so...

Anyway, see you folks on the 26th!

Happy Holidays!!!
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11444947#post11444947 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer

Oh! And Sunkool - how did the smoker work? Did you ever get around to smoking your rock? If so, tell us how that went, if you would :)
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I got high for about 20 minutes, beat the wife, and spent night in jail. I'll never do that again.
 
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