The Ultimate DIY Rocks!

MLR XTREME...

MLR XTREME...

It's on.:cool:

MRS (Mini Rock Sauna) has passed a trial run tonight. I came up with a "doohickey" to channel some of the condensation back to the PC and it is performing much better now. I used items I found in the plumbing box in the garage, but a more permanent solution will be devised. For now, I am using a nylon reducing hose barb which just happened to slip over the original "valve stem" of the PC, connecting to the copper doohickey, kind of bent like a question mark, going to a nylon elbow that goes to the vinyl hose that connects to the igloo itself. I will post pictures with a full write-up when I have proof of it's functionality.

I was able to reach 155°F, with steam enough to almost scald myself when I went to look and see what was going on inside the igloo. The igloo did not appear to take any damage from the steam.

So. I sold a small load of rock the other day, and as my hubby and I agreed, I used the funds to make a stock order from Sealife Inc - a bunch of ricordea and a few other things.

But I still haven't gotten "the perfect rock" for my 'Cube, so, this is going to be like one of those DIY Extreme shows. I have 5 days before the stock arrives, give or take. So I need to have rock NOW. I figure the stock will be ok for a few days just hanging out, but this is the fire under my butt to finally cast and choose a piece of rock.

Tonight I am going to cast 2 pieces fit to my 'Cube. After 16-18 hours, I will remove them from the casting bin and proceed to steam them in the MRS for 4 hours, with a 2 hour "ramp up and down" period on each end of the steam period. The will then go into a very weak vinegar solution for 24 hours, then 3 days of wetting and allowing it to dry (the idea is to encourage carbonation). I will then test the rock with a standard 3 day pH test. And post my results. If need be, I will follow up with a few days of additional kuring.

And then you guys will get to choose the rock I use of the two I will have made :D

Wish me luck!
 
hi again insane
i have some more questions:) , i whent down and got some portland type I&II, silica sand and solar salt from a home depot in the states, but iam haveing a hard time with the calcium carbonate sand from the feed store, is what iam looking a large grain grit sand like for birds or a fine powder? i asked for calcium carbonate but they call it sodium cloride is it the same thing?

i made a test rock with some portland, sand and a bit of CC&OS and salt, casted it in sand and iam going to cook it tommorow when i cook it do i wrap it in tinfoil or just put it in the oven at 450 with a pan of water for about 6 hours then take it out and dunk it in hot water several times and then a bath in 10% vinegar for three days then in FW for afew days with daily WCs dos that sound right?

and one important thing i was wondering is, the fumes/smell of the rock wile cooking do you know if it is bad for fish or birds? i have three FW tanks in my kitchen and my moms starling is in the upstairs kitchen i could move the bird but my mom isent to happy about me cooking rock in her oven, will it make a mess in the oven at all?

sorry for all the questions:)
 
now INSANE you say you can use chicken scratch. well i found some at fleet farm but didnt buy it cuz i saw alum. oxide was in it also. was it safe to use?
well trip wasnt wasted though i got some crushed shells :)
 
NP Silence - never be sorry for questions you've asked. ;)

You are looking for the larger "sand" sized Calcium Carbonate. I've seen it in two different sizes locally - one is pretty chunky (like the brown cement sand Quikrete sells), and is what I prefer, the other is sugar fine, like what we would use in our tank for the DSB. You have to be careful though, and make sure you get Calcium/limestone based grit and not the Granite (or other?) based grit.
Did they try to sell you Sodium Chloride or Calcium Chloride? Neither is what you were looking for in this instance - SC is Salt like table salt, CC is also a salt, but is used to speed the initial set of cement (and to de-ice driveways) - I use this in my personal mix so I can handle pieces earlier (and I think it slightly speeds the cure as well), but it isn't something you would use as an aggregate.
You might also look at your local big box stores - Pulverized Limestone or Limestone Sand are pretty much all the same thing.

And I had a gent from the UK PM me the other day, and he had found something called "Recycled Crushed Glass" - a very intriguing idea - recycling glass into sand. I've not seen this stuff around, but maybe someone else has? I'd be interested in a bag just to see what it is like, if for nothing else, but this might also be an idea for a sand aggregate. So if anyone spots any, get me the name of the chain and a SKU if possible. Thanks! :)

And as far as steaming the rock goes, please reconsider using the "high heat" variation.

There is a pretty good chance that baked rock will develop problems down the road, and even though I've made no bones about the potential problems this method could cause, I'd still feel bad if people came back with a bunch of failed rock, especially when I think I've found a better way to do it. Now if you are just curious, or making sump rock, then that is ok, but if things go as planned tomorrow, I will do a write-up of the "low heat" method, which should produce much stabler rock. In fact, I've emailed "JohnL", the mod, to see about having the old method post deleted so there won't be the potential for people to get confused.

It sounds like you have a pretty firm grip on the procedure, however, the vinegar bath is 1/4cup per gallon of water, not 10%. I would NOT wrap the piece in tinfoil, but line the bottom of the oven with it, as well as "cap" the vent under the top rear burner with foil. I'm sorry, but this will require you to clean the oven when you are done or your mom is gonna kill you. No matter how careful you are, you are going to get sand in the oven and the steam will lift any grime that is in the oven and get sort of icky.
And I would imagine that the fumes are not great for birds, but it didn't seem to bother the cats, dogs, people or tanks - birds are so sensitive to stuff like that, I'd be really, really careful. Block off all the vents to that room, and block off the kitchen with a sheet or blanket to keep the fumes contained, and run the hood fan, and if it is warm enough, put a fan in the kitchen window, venting outward.

I've been pimping the chicken grit for like the last 6 months, Customcolor :D
I don't know enough chemistry to know if aluminum oxide would cause a problem. It could be that this would create a "High Alumina Content" cement and be awesome - aluminum powder can create an air entrained effect and create voids, but too much alumina can be poisonous. So it might be bad. I don't know. Maybe someone else can offer their opinion. What % was the Al2O3? What was the bulk of the content? Are you sure that this stuff was for feeding chickens? You could always go to a different feed store and see what they have (or call)...
 
Is it possible to update the methods and time frames of procedures to kure the rock? its all beginning to jumble together
 
Ok, Lowfi, here you go - hope this is what you were asking for.

Cure = hydration and hardening of cement or concrete.
Kure = any process that renders rock with a safe pH, typically accomplished with water baths.

For "by the book" curing of rock, leave the rock in a warm, damp place for 7-28 days. The longer you leave it alone the more able it will be to withstand chemical attacks. Then proceed with the kure.
For Steam curing, around 18 hours is the target time for the block industry to produce "mature" blocks, though the actual steam portion is generally only 4-12 hours - this depends on several variables. Once cooled, kuring can commence.

Kuring takes as long as it takes. Traditionally, rock goes into a bath of water and water changes occur as the pH of the kure solution rises above 11 or 12 - this will be frequent in the beginning and tapering off as the calcium hydroxide is leeched out.

If your rock is fully cured (either steamed, properly cured through age or by chemical admixture), the kure can be sped with a very weak acid bath (no more than 1/4 cup vinegar to 1 gallon of water), which will pull the calcium hydroxide out into solution faster, but again, the potential for damage is an issue.

However you kure your rock, keep a few things in mind.

Never use excessive heat on rock - anything over 160° is considered excessive. After reading and reading, I can say with confidence that boiling rock is about the worst thing you can do to it. You can heat the kure solution to no more then 160°F, and this will speed the kure - a tank heater will raise the temp to around 90° and be a safe gentle heat. You can also use a candy thermometer in a pot on the stove and keep the temp at the correct level.

Acid of any form is detrimental to cement, so it's use should be sparing, if at all.

Never "shock" the rock. Taking cold rock and putting it in hot water can form micro-cracks, which over time can cause rock to crumble. The opposite is also true. Allow rock to slowly rise to target temperature for the best results.
 
Insane
i think it was like 4% for the alum. oxide. i took a pic with my phone but didnt get the % just the case num and it was called chicken scratch. fleet farm brand. i think i will go get some next time im out that way and do some testing with and with out salt and break them open.
 
Cool Customcolor - Experimentation is fun :)

Again, I'm not a scientist, so I don't know how 4% would affect anything. It will be ok for the cement, that is for sure, and as I said, might react as aluminum powder would and cause air voids, which could be cool, but I'd be interested in a water quality test to see what the total aluminum is after Kuring. But I am a worry-wart, so...
But a better way to see if this stuff is going to produce air voids would be to mix the cement and grit into a moderately thick paste, make 2 pieces - one with grit and one with normal sand and shape them no more than 1" thick. Let them sit for 24-48 hours, then crack them open and examine the broken plane with a magnifying glass to see if there is any difference.

And on another note, I've completed my first full run of the MRS! I must say, it performed better then I expected. My ramp-up time took longer then I thought - I started with cold water, which on hindsight was a mistake - start it with hot water and the time frame should work better. Had to tweak the hose a bit, but finally found the right "lay" for it so condensation wouldn't pool in the hose and block steam flow. I managed to keep a steady 150-155°F for 5 hours. I had to refill the PC once with almost boiling water.

Anyway, my livestock should be here any minute, so will do a proper write-up later today or tonight, complete with pictures :)
 
I am wanting to make a rock wall on the back and sides of my tank. My plan is to have sheets of acrylic that are cut to the size of my tank wall laying horizontally and then just placing the cement mix on the acrylic. once everything is cured I will just silicon the acrylic to the inside wall of my tank. My question is will the cement stick to the acrylic?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11571676#post11571676 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chull13
I am wanting to make a rock wall on the back and sides of my tank. My plan is to have sheets of acrylic that are cut to the size of my tank wall laying horizontally and then just placing the cement mix on the acrylic. once everything is cured I will just silicon the acrylic to the inside wall of my tank. My question is will the cement stick to the acrylic?
Click to expand...
If you drill holes in it and then thread synthetic yarn like used for making killifish and rainbowfish spawning mops, the concrete will stick to the yarn very well. Silicone won't stick to the acrylic on the back side, so the yarn on the back side would again be the strong attachment point for both concrete on the front and silicone on the back.

You can also spray waterfall foam on the back of the tank, easiest if the tank is tipped on its back. Carve or touch up any deep relief or caves into it after it dries, then coat with concrete. The foam will stick to the glass without any silicone. It's always good with a thin coat of concrete to have as many "ties" as possible such as the synthetic yarn, but scoring the surface of the foam will help a lot, especially if you have the Dremel bit that carves a groove slightly wider at the bottom.

There is also the coarse filter mat for ponds that works great. You could experiment with the plastic mesh used under stucco. I've seen it up on walls being stuccoed but never used it for anything myself.
 
Howdy Chull, welcome to the thread! :wave:

Actually, silicone may work, depending on the size of the pieces on the backwall - the backwall of my 'cube is basically acrylic/abs plastic, and I was told that silicone wouldn't hold to the slick surface, but almost 10 months later it is still sticking just fine. You can help adhesion by sanding the side that will have the silicone. The silicone also makes a seal so that detritus doesn't end up stuck behind. A good idea, IMO, even if you aren't counting on the silicone holding the rock up by itself.

But instead of acrylic, which will be a lot more labor intensive, how about egg crate? Cement will stick to it with little to no prep, and you can make ledge supports and tie it all in together rather easily.

I personally don't like the foam alternatives. I've seen too many threads where there were later problems as the foam ages and starts to get weird and flaky. And then you have crabs and the like that I've heard like to pick at the foam for fun...



And everyone else :)
I did spend over an hour last night doing the write-up for the MRS, but when I hit the Submit button, I got a message saying I had used too many images, to go back and fix it, and of course, when I hit back, everything I had spent that time writing was gone. So I will re-write it and submit it later on today.

In the meantime, how about helping me choose my rock? :D
This is what I came up with - 3 pieces total. I used a 16oz bottle in the photo's so people would get an idea of the scale I'm working on here. Tiny rocks are tough to make :(
None of them suck, and I do have a favorite, but want to see if you folks agree. I'm still trying to figure out how to photograph white rock consistently - tried something different with Choice 3 and used no flash, and edited the colors after the fact. I did get more detail with that method, I think...
Front and side pic's of each rock:

Choice 1:
rock1a.jpg

And the side view:
rock1b.jpg


Choice 2:
rock2a.jpg

And the side view:
rock2b.jpg


Choice 3:
rock3a.jpg

And the side view:
rock3b.jpg


So which do you guys think?
 
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