The Ultimate DIY Rocks!
- Thread starter JohnL
- Start date
Insane Reefer
New member
Thanks for the input, everyone.
I changed pictures in that post - thought maybe I wasn't being fair to the first two by having such a well defined image (though color is way off) for Choice 3 (or 5 depending on how you look at it
), so I re-shot them with no flash as well, with limited results - though they do have more definition.
I could really use a few tips from a good photographer on how to shoot white rock, lol.
3 is my favorite too
Think I'm going to use it.
Thanks again for the input!
I changed pictures in that post - thought maybe I wasn't being fair to the first two by having such a well defined image (though color is way off) for Choice 3 (or 5 depending on how you look at it
), so I re-shot them with no flash as well, with limited results - though they do have more definition.I could really use a few tips from a good photographer on how to shoot white rock, lol.
3 is my favorite too
Think I'm going to use it.Thanks again for the input!
Insane Reefer
New member
Mini Rock Sauna - First Tested January 9th, 2008 By Insane Reefer at Reef Central
The purpose of the Mini Rock Sauna (MRS) is to allow the hobbyist to create MLR (Manufactured (DIY) Live Rock) in a very short time-frame by using what I've dubbed as the Jiffy Rock Method (JRM). Previous efforts with the JRM produced traditional type rock, using traditional materials, that could be used in the aquarium in as little as 9 days. However the previous method is deemed flawed, and by using the original JRM, the potential for later rock failure is increased. By following the cement block industries methods for steam curing cement blocks that are equivalent to mature block of 28 days of age, the new and improved JRM has less potential for possible future rock failure.
I am not a scientist, nor am I a cementitious expert. I am a very curious monkey though, and thought there might be a faster way for people to make their own live rock at home. So I started a 6 month journey of discovery, learning as much as I could about cement - from online sources and experts I contacted, and then later on to the research articles and books from the local universities online resources. After a little trial and error (and a lot of brain freeze), and further supporting testing by volunteer Reef Central members (my Lab Monkeys), I thought I was ready to release my method. But in continuing my cement education, I had started to touch on cement failure, and learned the risk that all cement based MLR faces in the Saltwater Aquarium, and realized that the method I had formulated might have future problems. I found this to be unacceptable, so I returned to the drawing board, and with some modification and the "invention" of a new rock making device, recreated the JRM. Only time will tell if the rock created with the JRM is as stable as it's traditional counterpart, but I hope that by creating this method and making it readily available to the general public, that more people will be able or willing to make their own live rock, thereby reducing some of the stress on our diminishing reefs.
As this is a DIY project, the author (that's me), can take no responsibility for anything that goes wrong by someone implementing this method, nor is she responsible for damages or injuries that might happen to a careless or unlucky person.
You need the following "equipment":
* Pressure Cooker - the larger, the better as temperature is more easily controlled with a larger volume of water. It might be possible to use a pot with a tight fitting lid (would have to bore a hole if it doesn't have one for the knob), but I'm not sure of that. I used a $40 Mirro 8qt PC from Wal-mart, which happened to fit the parts I had, so the PC was unaltered and was used the next night to make Cassoulet (only water is in the PC, so it can still be used for food, if you don't end up drilling it).
* Cooler - Igloo chest type. Should also work with larger igloo drink dispensers and might work with styrofoam coolers. I used a medium sized chest that my dad was going to throw out because it was "old".
* Thermometer - You almost have to go digital probe or remote for this. You can't open the lid of the MRS while in use (except in a 3 second emergency vent), but you must monitor the temperature during the process. I used a Coralife/ESU digi probe from Petco - I think it was $12.00.
* Stovetop or hotplate/burner - I used the front small burner on my stovetop - figured it would be easier to control the temperature, and it is. A small single burner that kids use in the dorm should also work.
And you will need the following "parts":
* Approximately 4ft of hose. I used vinyl hose and it worked just fine, but use something better if you want.
* 1 Connector barb - I used nylon and it worked just fine. I used a reducing barb I happened to have in the plumbing box, but if I were to buy one for the project, I think I would get a straight connector - for joining two hoses of the same diameter.
* 1 Elbow connector - Again, I used nylon.
* 1ft of soft copper tubing that fits into the elbow and barb - I suppose it could go the other way, the tube to the outside.
OK. You have everything. Depending on what equipment you use, you might have to be a bit creative (or destructive) to make it all fit together, but this is a DIY thread, so DIY
These were my parts.
Stick the copper tube into the end of the elbow and the other end into the end of the hose barb. Bend the tube into a question mark and attach the hose to the elbow. Why a question mark? I dunno - it seemed like a good idea at the time, and since it worked, I guess it was as good as any other shape. Now, if your barb slips over the vent tube, do so, pushing it gently down all the way, and then hook the hose to the drain spout of the cooler (I had to heat the hose end a bit to get it to fit).
If your parts just don't work, you might be better off using a compression fitting and lock nut, and bore the appropriate sized hole in the lid (if needed) and proceed to fit it to the copper tubing of appropriate diameter - something like a 3/8ths fitting should work. Keep in mind that if you bore your lid, the PC will never function as it was meant to again.
When you are done putting it together, you should have something that looks like this:
Place the temperature probe in the cooler (the wire is thin, it should still seal), and place the read-out part where you can see it clearly. Now do a trial run. This will let you get a feel for how the MRS works before committing rock to it. As we've discussed, excessive heat is bad, as is heating (or cooling) the rock too quickly, so by doing a trial run, you run less chance of mis-steaming your rock.
How to Steam Cure Your Rocks the Jiffy Rock Way
First off, let's avoid terms like "cooking" or "baking" - if you want a technical term, we are "Steam Curing at Atmosphere". Tell a cement guy that you are cooking your cement rocks and he will be looking for the dudes in white duds that should be following just behind you Tell the same guy that you are steam curing your rock and if he knows about steam curing, he will be interested in what you are doing - and if he doesn't know, he'll might want you to explain it to him. Humor me and call it steaming, 'k?
The digital probe I used has a Max temperature of 158°F, which, ironically, is the exact temperature that several sources say that heat associated damages can start to occur, if pressure isn't used. I decided to keep the temp at 155°, and with a bit of fiddling, managed to stay within 1 or 2 degree's of that - except once, where I had to do an emergency vent after refilling the PC with boiling water halfway through the process.
So let's get started.
Cast your rocks 12-16 hours before the start of steam process. Be careful with this young rock as it will be soft and apt to break. If you must stack the rock in the cooler, place heavy pieces on the bottom and lighter pieces on top. Try to leave a small space around the drain spout so that blasting hot steam isn't hitting the rock directly (a few inches should be good). Once the rock is in place, close the lid, making sure the temperature probe is well placed. Use something to shim the igloo up on the drain spout side so that water that will accumulate in the cooler will not rise above the drain spout, thereby throttling the flow of steam. If you notice a steady fall in temperature, check to make sure that water isn't collecting at the spout.
Fill your PC with hot water - 2" from the top should be good - the more water, the easier temperature is to control. Bring the water to a boil, and place the lid on the PC. Arrange the hose so that the elbow is pointing slightly upwards, and the hose has a level grade from the top of the PC to the drain spout. Basically, you should see condensation run freely from the elbow to the spout, without pooling in any spot. Be careful handling the hose - it will be hot.
Adjust the stove knob to the point that the temperature in the igloo raises a little less than 1°F per minute (this should take about 2 hours). Remember, raising the temperature of rock too quickly can cause micro-fractures to the crystalline structure of the cement, and cause the potential for later rock failure.
Once you have reached the target temperature, refill the PC, if needed, with boiling water - just remove the lid, which is safe to do since the device is not under pressure - just be careful, the lid will be HOT. Check the temperature for the next 10 minutes, adjusting until the temperature is holding steady (ish) at 155°F. If you need to, you can do an "emergency vent". Wearing a protective glove or oven mitt, crack the lid of the cooler for not more than 3 seconds. Do not lean over the lid while venting - the released steam could scald your exposed skin! Check the heat to see if it has lowered and do it again after 2 or 3 minutes, if the temperature is still to high. If you find that you have to do this often, you will want to play with the stove knob a bit more; you haven't found the "sweet spot" yet. Emergency venting should be a last resort, not the means of maintaining temperature.
Set an alarm for 5 hours. You will need to monitor the temperature during the whole steam cycle. As water evaporates, the amount of energy required to heat it becomes less, so you will need to nudge the stove knob down a bit now and again. I think I was adjusting the knob about every 20-30 minutes. Only a very slight nudge should be used - there is a very fine line between holding steady and rising or lowering the temperature. Figure on refilling the PC once more too, about halfway into the steam cycle. Be quick during refills so that loss of heat is minimized.
When the steam cycle is completed, you now need to ramp the temperature down, slowly, just like you raised it, but in reverse. I found that at about 100°F that the temp wouldn't drop anymore with the PC connected, so I pulled the hose from the coolers drain spout. Be careful! - the cooler will have accumulated a bit of water and it will be hot. Have a bucket handy and allow the very hot water to drain out, then just leave it alone until it reaches within 10° of room temperature.
When cooled. take your rock out and allow it to dry out overnight.
The next day, you may start to kure your rock.
Traditional water bath methods will work, and generally take 2-4 weeks to complete; the more porous the rock, the faster it will leech out to a safe pH. Using a tank heater in the kure bin will speed the kure time. This is the safest and recommended way of performing the kure, but will not produce rock within the JRM time-frame. Place the rock in a bin, bucket or barrel. Add a aquarium heater and set it to max. Change water after 12 hours, then check pH daily, changing water when it reaches 11. After it it drops lower than 11, test every couple of days and change water as needed until a pH of 7-9 is reached. You may now use your rock.
Since this steamed rock is considered "cured", and if speed is more important to you than stability (i.e. you need a bunch of sump rock now), you may choose to use the full JRM (Steam+Acid Kure=JRM). To speed kure your rock, a very weak acid bath can be used to speed the dissolution of the calcium hydroxide and drop the pH much faster. One should be aware that the use of acid of any type to kure your rock is considered bad from a cement chemistry standpoint, and can greatly increase the chances of future rock failure. In essence, what you gain in speed, you can loose in stability. If you still want to use the full JRM, this speed kure can be accomplished but adding 1/4 cup of regular vinegar to each gallon of water used. The kure solution should be no less than 5pH. Place a tank heater (turned all the way up) in the kure bin and put your rock in to soak for 3 days. After this, rinse the rock really well, refill the bin and leave over night. Drain, refill and test the pH after 3 days. Most of the lab monkeys that helped test the JRM had pH test results in the 8-9pH range, which is safe to use. Never use rock over 9pH as the system may not be able to buffer that high of a pH. If the rock tests in the correct range, you can go ahead and start using it.
So that is it. You now have rock ready for your aquarium, and it took less effort, water and time then traditional methods usually take. I had a lot of fun working on this project, and learning about cement. I'd like to thank everyone on the thread for their comments, suggestions, help and general coolness. My cement/LR studies are going to continue, as I more fully delve into cement failure and ways that we can ensure success. My first project will be to try to improve the "kure" of MLR. As calcium hydroxide is leeched from cement, the cement is placed at greater risk of failure; basically, as I understand it at this point, the calcium hydrates in some way protect the rock from chemical attack. Carbonation is a way to convert the calcium hydroxide to calcium carbonate, which forms on the outer surfaces of the cement and works its way in. This carbonate barrier works both ways - it is supposed to "bind" the calcium hydrates into the rock, and calcium carbonate is not affected by saltwater the way cement can be. If a way can be found to reliably convert the calcium hydroxide, then traditional water kures would be rendered obsolete and indeed more harmful to the cement. So keep tuned as I explore this new avenue of MLR kuring - I will of course post my results for all to share and welcome ideas and suggestions.
If you use the JRM, please send me a message or email at rockresults@gmail.com, Subject: "JRM", I'd be especially interested in future reports, including reports several years from now on how the JRM rock is holding up. Pictures of your creations are also welcome
Questions about the JRM are of course, welcome, but should be directed here, to the thread so that everyone else can get the answer too.
Take Care and Rock On! :rollface:
The purpose of the Mini Rock Sauna (MRS) is to allow the hobbyist to create MLR (Manufactured (DIY) Live Rock) in a very short time-frame by using what I've dubbed as the Jiffy Rock Method (JRM). Previous efforts with the JRM produced traditional type rock, using traditional materials, that could be used in the aquarium in as little as 9 days. However the previous method is deemed flawed, and by using the original JRM, the potential for later rock failure is increased. By following the cement block industries methods for steam curing cement blocks that are equivalent to mature block of 28 days of age, the new and improved JRM has less potential for possible future rock failure.
I am not a scientist, nor am I a cementitious expert. I am a very curious monkey though, and thought there might be a faster way for people to make their own live rock at home. So I started a 6 month journey of discovery, learning as much as I could about cement - from online sources and experts I contacted, and then later on to the research articles and books from the local universities online resources. After a little trial and error (and a lot of brain freeze), and further supporting testing by volunteer Reef Central members (my Lab Monkeys), I thought I was ready to release my method. But in continuing my cement education, I had started to touch on cement failure, and learned the risk that all cement based MLR faces in the Saltwater Aquarium, and realized that the method I had formulated might have future problems. I found this to be unacceptable, so I returned to the drawing board, and with some modification and the "invention" of a new rock making device, recreated the JRM. Only time will tell if the rock created with the JRM is as stable as it's traditional counterpart, but I hope that by creating this method and making it readily available to the general public, that more people will be able or willing to make their own live rock, thereby reducing some of the stress on our diminishing reefs.
As this is a DIY project, the author (that's me), can take no responsibility for anything that goes wrong by someone implementing this method, nor is she responsible for damages or injuries that might happen to a careless or unlucky person.
You need the following "equipment":
* Pressure Cooker - the larger, the better as temperature is more easily controlled with a larger volume of water. It might be possible to use a pot with a tight fitting lid (would have to bore a hole if it doesn't have one for the knob), but I'm not sure of that. I used a $40 Mirro 8qt PC from Wal-mart, which happened to fit the parts I had, so the PC was unaltered and was used the next night to make Cassoulet (only water is in the PC, so it can still be used for food, if you don't end up drilling it).
* Cooler - Igloo chest type. Should also work with larger igloo drink dispensers and might work with styrofoam coolers. I used a medium sized chest that my dad was going to throw out because it was "old".
* Thermometer - You almost have to go digital probe or remote for this. You can't open the lid of the MRS while in use (except in a 3 second emergency vent), but you must monitor the temperature during the process. I used a Coralife/ESU digi probe from Petco - I think it was $12.00.
* Stovetop or hotplate/burner - I used the front small burner on my stovetop - figured it would be easier to control the temperature, and it is. A small single burner that kids use in the dorm should also work.
And you will need the following "parts":
* Approximately 4ft of hose. I used vinyl hose and it worked just fine, but use something better if you want.
* 1 Connector barb - I used nylon and it worked just fine. I used a reducing barb I happened to have in the plumbing box, but if I were to buy one for the project, I think I would get a straight connector - for joining two hoses of the same diameter.
* 1 Elbow connector - Again, I used nylon.
* 1ft of soft copper tubing that fits into the elbow and barb - I suppose it could go the other way, the tube to the outside.
OK. You have everything. Depending on what equipment you use, you might have to be a bit creative (or destructive) to make it all fit together, but this is a DIY thread, so DIY
These were my parts.
Stick the copper tube into the end of the elbow and the other end into the end of the hose barb. Bend the tube into a question mark and attach the hose to the elbow. Why a question mark? I dunno - it seemed like a good idea at the time, and since it worked, I guess it was as good as any other shape. Now, if your barb slips over the vent tube, do so, pushing it gently down all the way, and then hook the hose to the drain spout of the cooler (I had to heat the hose end a bit to get it to fit).
If your parts just don't work, you might be better off using a compression fitting and lock nut, and bore the appropriate sized hole in the lid (if needed) and proceed to fit it to the copper tubing of appropriate diameter - something like a 3/8ths fitting should work. Keep in mind that if you bore your lid, the PC will never function as it was meant to again.
When you are done putting it together, you should have something that looks like this:
Place the temperature probe in the cooler (the wire is thin, it should still seal), and place the read-out part where you can see it clearly. Now do a trial run. This will let you get a feel for how the MRS works before committing rock to it. As we've discussed, excessive heat is bad, as is heating (or cooling) the rock too quickly, so by doing a trial run, you run less chance of mis-steaming your rock.
How to Steam Cure Your Rocks the Jiffy Rock Way
First off, let's avoid terms like "cooking" or "baking" - if you want a technical term, we are "Steam Curing at Atmosphere". Tell a cement guy that you are cooking your cement rocks and he will be looking for the dudes in white duds that should be following just behind you
Tell the same guy that you are steam curing your rock and if he knows about steam curing, he will be interested in what you are doing - and if he doesn't know, he'll might want you to explain it to him. Humor me and call it steaming, 'k?The digital probe I used has a Max temperature of 158°F, which, ironically, is the exact temperature that several sources say that heat associated damages can start to occur, if pressure isn't used. I decided to keep the temp at 155°, and with a bit of fiddling, managed to stay within 1 or 2 degree's of that - except once, where I had to do an emergency vent after refilling the PC with boiling water halfway through the process.
So let's get started.
Cast your rocks 12-16 hours before the start of steam process. Be careful with this young rock as it will be soft and apt to break. If you must stack the rock in the cooler, place heavy pieces on the bottom and lighter pieces on top. Try to leave a small space around the drain spout so that blasting hot steam isn't hitting the rock directly (a few inches should be good). Once the rock is in place, close the lid, making sure the temperature probe is well placed. Use something to shim the igloo up on the drain spout side so that water that will accumulate in the cooler will not rise above the drain spout, thereby throttling the flow of steam. If you notice a steady fall in temperature, check to make sure that water isn't collecting at the spout.
Fill your PC with hot water - 2" from the top should be good - the more water, the easier temperature is to control. Bring the water to a boil, and place the lid on the PC. Arrange the hose so that the elbow is pointing slightly upwards, and the hose has a level grade from the top of the PC to the drain spout. Basically, you should see condensation run freely from the elbow to the spout, without pooling in any spot. Be careful handling the hose - it will be hot.
Adjust the stove knob to the point that the temperature in the igloo raises a little less than 1°F per minute (this should take about 2 hours). Remember, raising the temperature of rock too quickly can cause micro-fractures to the crystalline structure of the cement, and cause the potential for later rock failure.
Once you have reached the target temperature, refill the PC, if needed, with boiling water - just remove the lid, which is safe to do since the device is not under pressure - just be careful, the lid will be HOT. Check the temperature for the next 10 minutes, adjusting until the temperature is holding steady (ish) at 155°F. If you need to, you can do an "emergency vent". Wearing a protective glove or oven mitt, crack the lid of the cooler for not more than 3 seconds. Do not lean over the lid while venting - the released steam could scald your exposed skin! Check the heat to see if it has lowered and do it again after 2 or 3 minutes, if the temperature is still to high. If you find that you have to do this often, you will want to play with the stove knob a bit more; you haven't found the "sweet spot" yet. Emergency venting should be a last resort, not the means of maintaining temperature.
Set an alarm for 5 hours. You will need to monitor the temperature during the whole steam cycle. As water evaporates, the amount of energy required to heat it becomes less, so you will need to nudge the stove knob down a bit now and again. I think I was adjusting the knob about every 20-30 minutes. Only a very slight nudge should be used - there is a very fine line between holding steady and rising or lowering the temperature. Figure on refilling the PC once more too, about halfway into the steam cycle. Be quick during refills so that loss of heat is minimized.
When the steam cycle is completed, you now need to ramp the temperature down, slowly, just like you raised it, but in reverse. I found that at about 100°F that the temp wouldn't drop anymore with the PC connected, so I pulled the hose from the coolers drain spout. Be careful! - the cooler will have accumulated a bit of water and it will be hot. Have a bucket handy and allow the very hot water to drain out, then just leave it alone until it reaches within 10° of room temperature.
When cooled. take your rock out and allow it to dry out overnight.
The next day, you may start to kure your rock.
Traditional water bath methods will work, and generally take 2-4 weeks to complete; the more porous the rock, the faster it will leech out to a safe pH. Using a tank heater in the kure bin will speed the kure time. This is the safest and recommended way of performing the kure, but will not produce rock within the JRM time-frame. Place the rock in a bin, bucket or barrel. Add a aquarium heater and set it to max. Change water after 12 hours, then check pH daily, changing water when it reaches 11. After it it drops lower than 11, test every couple of days and change water as needed until a pH of 7-9 is reached. You may now use your rock.
Since this steamed rock is considered "cured", and if speed is more important to you than stability (i.e. you need a bunch of sump rock now), you may choose to use the full JRM (Steam+Acid Kure=JRM). To speed kure your rock, a very weak acid bath can be used to speed the dissolution of the calcium hydroxide and drop the pH much faster. One should be aware that the use of acid of any type to kure your rock is considered bad from a cement chemistry standpoint, and can greatly increase the chances of future rock failure. In essence, what you gain in speed, you can loose in stability. If you still want to use the full JRM, this speed kure can be accomplished but adding 1/4 cup of regular vinegar to each gallon of water used. The kure solution should be no less than 5pH. Place a tank heater (turned all the way up) in the kure bin and put your rock in to soak for 3 days. After this, rinse the rock really well, refill the bin and leave over night. Drain, refill and test the pH after 3 days. Most of the lab monkeys that helped test the JRM had pH test results in the 8-9pH range, which is safe to use. Never use rock over 9pH as the system may not be able to buffer that high of a pH. If the rock tests in the correct range, you can go ahead and start using it.
So that is it. You now have rock ready for your aquarium, and it took less effort, water and time then traditional methods usually take. I had a lot of fun working on this project, and learning about cement. I'd like to thank everyone on the thread for their comments, suggestions, help and general coolness. My cement/LR studies are going to continue, as I more fully delve into cement failure and ways that we can ensure success. My first project will be to try to improve the "kure" of MLR. As calcium hydroxide is leeched from cement, the cement is placed at greater risk of failure; basically, as I understand it at this point, the calcium hydrates in some way protect the rock from chemical attack. Carbonation is a way to convert the calcium hydroxide to calcium carbonate, which forms on the outer surfaces of the cement and works its way in. This carbonate barrier works both ways - it is supposed to "bind" the calcium hydrates into the rock, and calcium carbonate is not affected by saltwater the way cement can be. If a way can be found to reliably convert the calcium hydroxide, then traditional water kures would be rendered obsolete and indeed more harmful to the cement. So keep tuned as I explore this new avenue of MLR kuring - I will of course post my results for all to share and welcome ideas and suggestions.
If you use the JRM, please send me a message or email at rockresults@gmail.com, Subject: "JRM", I'd be especially interested in future reports, including reports several years from now on how the JRM rock is holding up. Pictures of your creations are also welcome
Questions about the JRM are of course, welcome, but should be directed here, to the thread so that everyone else can get the answer too.
Take Care and Rock On! :rollface:
Insane Reefer
New member
I started the 3 rocks kuring last night.
I'm kuring each in a different way - as all 3 are pretty close to size and weight, it should be interesting to see results.
The 1st choice rock is in a weak acid bath and I predict that this rock will be the 1st that is ready to use.
The 2nd choice rock is in a traditional warm water bath.
The 3rd choice rock (the one I'll use) is in something a bit different.
As I said, I am going to start looking into alternative ways to kure rock that don't include the use of a lot of water (and subsequent leeching of Ca(OH)2). I can think of 2 alternatives at this time - maybe more will occur as I study more and if they do, I will try them out too.
Anyway, calcium hydroxide (Ca(OH)2) can be converted to calcium carbonate (CaCO3) when exposed to carbon dioxide (CO2). While adding CO2 to water might sound like the best way to provide the CO2, this produces carbonic acid (H2CO3), which, like any acid is not very good for porous cement. The best way to provide the CO2 is in the atmosphere - an environment saturated with CO2 should cause more carbonation to occur at a quicker rate - or at least this has been the case in multiple laboratory studies.
Instead of spending a bunch of money up front for a CO2 canister and valve system, I thought I would try a more accessible and organic approach. One of my other hobbies is making mead, a fermented honey "wine". From this I know that the fungi, yeast, can respire CO2 in vast qualities as well as produce ethanol, given the right conditions.
So I set up an experiment. I used a 5g bucket since I am only doing one rock. I used a saw to make a small divot into the top lip of the bucket - enough for an electrical cord to lay in it and allow a lid to close. I turned the heater up to 85°F. I happen to have lids with rubber grommet holes for using an air-lock during fermentation, so I used a nylon barb and stuck the ends of airline tubing in, running an air-pump to an air-stone, through the lid - this is not "air-tight" by any means, but this is by design - I don't need a yeast shower going off in my crap room, but it should keep in most of the atmosphere, and vent enough to keep pressure down. I filled the bucket with about a gallon of water, and placed a small plastic basket in the bottom to lift the rock up out of the solution. To the water I added 1/2 cup sugar and 1 package fast acting yeast. I rinsed the rock for about 5 minutes in lukewarm water, and added it to the bucket, snapped the lid down and plugged in the heater and air-pump. Within a few hours, my house smelled like a brewery.
Rock hooch anyone? :beer:
I will re-wet the rock every two days, and add some more sugar at the same time. I think damp rock will allow a quicker ingress of CO2, and so hopefully cause internal carbonation as well. I don't think that putting the rock directly in the solution would be good either, since carbonic acid and alcohol are both present, and the high pH will kill yeast - I think the rock needs to remain above the level of the solution.
So I will proceed to deal with each of these kures, and see what the results are - and post my results.
Does anyone have any idea's for the simple and cheap production of a lot a CO2, if this looks like it might work? I think I will google CO2 Reactors and see what I can come up with.
I'm kuring each in a different way - as all 3 are pretty close to size and weight, it should be interesting to see results.
The 1st choice rock is in a weak acid bath and I predict that this rock will be the 1st that is ready to use.
The 2nd choice rock is in a traditional warm water bath.
The 3rd choice rock (the one I'll use) is in something a bit different.
As I said, I am going to start looking into alternative ways to kure rock that don't include the use of a lot of water (and subsequent leeching of Ca(OH)2). I can think of 2 alternatives at this time - maybe more will occur as I study more and if they do, I will try them out too.
Anyway, calcium hydroxide (Ca(OH)2) can be converted to calcium carbonate (CaCO3) when exposed to carbon dioxide (CO2). While adding CO2 to water might sound like the best way to provide the CO2, this produces carbonic acid (H2CO3), which, like any acid is not very good for porous cement. The best way to provide the CO2 is in the atmosphere - an environment saturated with CO2 should cause more carbonation to occur at a quicker rate - or at least this has been the case in multiple laboratory studies.
Instead of spending a bunch of money up front for a CO2 canister and valve system, I thought I would try a more accessible and organic approach. One of my other hobbies is making mead, a fermented honey "wine". From this I know that the fungi, yeast, can respire CO2 in vast qualities as well as produce ethanol, given the right conditions.
So I set up an experiment. I used a 5g bucket since I am only doing one rock. I used a saw to make a small divot into the top lip of the bucket - enough for an electrical cord to lay in it and allow a lid to close. I turned the heater up to 85°F. I happen to have lids with rubber grommet holes for using an air-lock during fermentation, so I used a nylon barb and stuck the ends of airline tubing in, running an air-pump to an air-stone, through the lid - this is not "air-tight" by any means, but this is by design - I don't need a yeast shower going off in my crap room, but it should keep in most of the atmosphere, and vent enough to keep pressure down. I filled the bucket with about a gallon of water, and placed a small plastic basket in the bottom to lift the rock up out of the solution. To the water I added 1/2 cup sugar and 1 package fast acting yeast. I rinsed the rock for about 5 minutes in lukewarm water, and added it to the bucket, snapped the lid down and plugged in the heater and air-pump. Within a few hours, my house smelled like a brewery.
Rock hooch anyone? :beer:
I will re-wet the rock every two days, and add some more sugar at the same time. I think damp rock will allow a quicker ingress of CO2, and so hopefully cause internal carbonation as well. I don't think that putting the rock directly in the solution would be good either, since carbonic acid and alcohol are both present, and the high pH will kill yeast - I think the rock needs to remain above the level of the solution.
So I will proceed to deal with each of these kures, and see what the results are - and post my results.
Does anyone have any idea's for the simple and cheap production of a lot a CO2, if this looks like it might work? I think I will google CO2 Reactors and see what I can come up with.
2004jeepoutlander
New member
very creative kudos my best frinds dad is the best steam enginer in the country im gona talk to him.....about something like this on a larger scale..
Insane Reefer
New member
Thanks Jeff
I'm sure that someone with the know-how could make something more effecient, but for the average person at home, this should work just fine. My next step is to find that deep freezer and scale it up for a more commercial use.
I'm sure that someone with the know-how could make something more effecient, but for the average person at home, this should work just fine. My next step is to find that deep freezer and scale it up for a more commercial use.
2004jeepoutlander
New member
this thread needs a bump , bumpdy bump
logiktest
New member
Hello Insane, congratulations on your invention/implementation of the MRS steam system!
I know it has been a long road for you to travel. I have been subscribed to this tread since I joined RC. Half the reason I joined RC was because I could not subscribe to this thread without joining. I would like to thank you for everything you have done to advance MLR! Your contribution is priceless. I only wish I could have found the information that you and everyone else have divulged on the subject before I started creating my own rock sculptures!
I have a few questions about your new method and a few suggestions as well. I was hoping you could help. Your input is appreciated.
For the construction of the tubing, is the reason you chose to incorporate copper to prevent the plastic tube from melting near the pressure cooker? If this is the case could CPVC be used for the upright tube coming off the pressure cooker or maybe just a harder, heat resistant flexible tube?
Would drilling a small hole at the top, on one end of the cooler to insert a stainless steel temp. probe(meat thermometer sealed in the hole with silicone) be more cost effective, last longer, and simplify the system as a whole rather than purchasing a new digital version from the fish shop?
Basically, after viewing the new system I see the evolution to look something like this(please correct me if I am off base, making too many assumptions, or you see a problem with this):
Pressure cooker with hose barb in the lid just like the original design. A flexible yet harder tubing connected to the hose barb running to the top of the cooler where a corresponding hole
will be drilled in one end on the top of the lid to accept another hose barb and the opposite end of the tube.
At the opposite end of the cooler, on top of the lid, a smaller hole would be drilled to accept a meat thermometer. Now the drain plug is free to use as a venting mechanism, place a length of hose on the drain plug for water and steam to escape when you depress the plunger with your finger.
Alternatively, if your cooler is not equipped with a plunger style drain, and instead incorporates a threaded cap, you may wish to run the hose off the drain of the cooler back to the pressure cooker by drilling another hole in the lid of the pressure cooker and using a hose barb. This may help to reclaim water in the system to be used again as steam in the pressure cooker. The cooler drain would need to sit higher than the lid of the pressure cooker for gravity to complete the cycle. With this design you may also want to cant the cooler so the drain will be the lowest point of the cooler. Of course drilling a second hole in the cookers lid would likely render it useless for anything else...
Insane, after reading what I just wrote, I would like you to know that I'm not trying to reinvent your "wheel", or screw up your design. I'm just very excited about this finally all coming to fruition. I believe that a big step forward has just been taken for our hobby.
Again, thank you for your tremendous insight, thorough research, and being kind enough to share it all.
I know it has been a long road for you to travel. I have been subscribed to this tread since I joined RC. Half the reason I joined RC was because I could not subscribe to this thread without joining. I would like to thank you for everything you have done to advance MLR! Your contribution is priceless. I only wish I could have found the information that you and everyone else have divulged on the subject before I started creating my own rock sculptures!
I have a few questions about your new method and a few suggestions as well. I was hoping you could help. Your input is appreciated.
For the construction of the tubing, is the reason you chose to incorporate copper to prevent the plastic tube from melting near the pressure cooker? If this is the case could CPVC be used for the upright tube coming off the pressure cooker or maybe just a harder, heat resistant flexible tube?
Would drilling a small hole at the top, on one end of the cooler to insert a stainless steel temp. probe(meat thermometer sealed in the hole with silicone) be more cost effective, last longer, and simplify the system as a whole rather than purchasing a new digital version from the fish shop?
Basically, after viewing the new system I see the evolution to look something like this(please correct me if I am off base, making too many assumptions, or you see a problem with this):
Pressure cooker with hose barb in the lid just like the original design. A flexible yet harder tubing connected to the hose barb running to the top of the cooler where a corresponding hole
will be drilled in one end on the top of the lid to accept another hose barb and the opposite end of the tube.
At the opposite end of the cooler, on top of the lid, a smaller hole would be drilled to accept a meat thermometer. Now the drain plug is free to use as a venting mechanism, place a length of hose on the drain plug for water and steam to escape when you depress the plunger with your finger.
Alternatively, if your cooler is not equipped with a plunger style drain, and instead incorporates a threaded cap, you may wish to run the hose off the drain of the cooler back to the pressure cooker by drilling another hole in the lid of the pressure cooker and using a hose barb. This may help to reclaim water in the system to be used again as steam in the pressure cooker. The cooler drain would need to sit higher than the lid of the pressure cooker for gravity to complete the cycle. With this design you may also want to cant the cooler so the drain will be the lowest point of the cooler. Of course drilling a second hole in the cookers lid would likely render it useless for anything else...
Insane, after reading what I just wrote, I would like you to know that I'm not trying to reinvent your "wheel", or screw up your design. I'm just very excited about this finally all coming to fruition. I believe that a big step forward has just been taken for our hobby.
Again, thank you for your tremendous insight, thorough research, and being kind enough to share it all.
Insane Reefer
New member
Hey there Logiktest,
Thanks for the kind words My momma taught me that sharing was a good thing and something you just do for its own sake. If it helps people out, even better - that's instant bonus karma
This is a DIY project. Many folks will have to modify their setup somewhat to work with the equipment they have - what I've posted is simply a guideline - how to build a simple MRS, and how to use it. I see nothing wrong with your questions or wanting to alter this setup for your own needs. I wouldn't see a problem if you get yours setup and wanted to post about how you did yours and how it worked for you
I don't see why your mod's wouldn't work, with the exception of the drain spout being used to vent - when/if you need to vent, it needs to happen pretty quick, and I don't see the spout being able to do that.
And for your specific questions, I used the copper tube as a sort of high heat stand-off. My first trials had the hose connected directly to the nipple, and I ran into two problems - one, the heat softened the hose to the point it was collapsing and cutting off the flow of anything, and the other was to help channel the worst of the condensation back into the PC - when it was attached directly to the nylon nipple, the hose tended to fill quickly with condensation.
A meat probe was my first thought since it hits the temp ranges we are looking at (Beef - Med @ 160°), but I didn't want to "bash" any of the parts used in creating the MRS, and I happened to have an extra digi for use around the house (very handy to have), so that is what I went with.
I like your idea for reclamation - the loss of water/steam is the main problem with the design ATM. This is an issue I am going to deal with on the Large Rock Sauna, coming soon...
I was seeing it as being more like a top-off system myself. I'm afraid that as you have it so far (or how I am seeing it), the only thing that might happen is the steam would begin traveling the new hose, from the PC end to the cooler.
My particular PC has a secondary emergency vent that I think I could remove to accommodate a copper feed-line, but I was going to use it to bring in fresh boiling water from another pot to keep the water level in the PC correct (which will lessen the tweaking of the knobs), not to bring the nappy water back to the PC from the cooler - I have found that I love my PC - I'd never had one or used one until my hubby brought this home to me, so I am loath to damage it.
I hope this answered your questions.
Let me know if I can assist in any other way
Thanks for the kind words
My momma taught me that sharing was a good thing and something you just do for its own sake. If it helps people out, even better - that's instant bonus karma This is a DIY project. Many folks will have to modify their setup somewhat to work with the equipment they have - what I've posted is simply a guideline - how to build a simple MRS, and how to use it. I see nothing wrong with your questions or wanting to alter this setup for your own needs. I wouldn't see a problem if you get yours setup and wanted to post about how you did yours and how it worked for you
I don't see why your mod's wouldn't work, with the exception of the drain spout being used to vent - when/if you need to vent, it needs to happen pretty quick, and I don't see the spout being able to do that.
And for your specific questions, I used the copper tube as a sort of high heat stand-off. My first trials had the hose connected directly to the nipple, and I ran into two problems - one, the heat softened the hose to the point it was collapsing and cutting off the flow of anything, and the other was to help channel the worst of the condensation back into the PC - when it was attached directly to the nylon nipple, the hose tended to fill quickly with condensation.
A meat probe was my first thought since it hits the temp ranges we are looking at (Beef - Med @ 160°), but I didn't want to "bash" any of the parts used in creating the MRS, and I happened to have an extra digi for use around the house (very handy to have), so that is what I went with.
I like your idea for reclamation - the loss of water/steam is the main problem with the design ATM. This is an issue I am going to deal with on the Large Rock Sauna, coming soon...
I was seeing it as being more like a top-off system myself. I'm afraid that as you have it so far (or how I am seeing it), the only thing that might happen is the steam would begin traveling the new hose, from the PC end to the cooler.
My particular PC has a secondary emergency vent that I think I could remove to accommodate a copper feed-line, but I was going to use it to bring in fresh boiling water from another pot to keep the water level in the PC correct (which will lessen the tweaking of the knobs), not to bring the nappy water back to the PC from the cooler - I have found that I love my PC - I'd never had one or used one until my hubby brought this home to me, so I am loath to damage it.
I hope this answered your questions.
Let me know if I can assist in any other way
goldmaniac
New member
Hello everyone -
I used to subscribe to this thread for about 6 months, but havent been back since, oh, Halloween, i guess. Good to see it's still growing - more splits! ha
ok, so I've been soaking a 2nd batch of white MMLR in a 32 gallon trashcan for over 4 months now, going on 5 months. water changes twice a week.
Actually I'm using two 32-gallon cans, pumping from one into another and using an external overflow back into the first, so that water volume is maximized
Almost a full 32 gallon tub of rock.
and I've lost patience... pH stil 9.0+
What to do?
I hesitated to bake the rocks because it would have taken 3 or 4 batches to do it in the oven, but more importantly we have a 4-year-old and especially a (now) 9-month-old whom I did not want to subject to house fumes
And it's just too cold to open all windows and hope for the best.
Any suggestions? water changes every 2 days? keep water pH low with dissolved muriatic acid?
right now it's sitting in the basement, i removed the pump and 2nd trash can. I did a water change last weekend and put salt water into the trash can this time, pH>9.
The main difference with this batch of MMLR from my previous batch that's now in my tank is that I used Federal White Cement, mabye much more carbonation going on. I think it's Type II.
thanks,
G.
I used to subscribe to this thread for about 6 months, but havent been back since, oh, Halloween, i guess. Good to see it's still growing - more splits! ha
ok, so I've been soaking a 2nd batch of white MMLR in a 32 gallon trashcan for over 4 months now, going on 5 months. water changes twice a week.
Actually I'm using two 32-gallon cans, pumping from one into another and using an external overflow back into the first, so that water volume is maximized
Almost a full 32 gallon tub of rock.
and I've lost patience... pH stil 9.0+
What to do?
I hesitated to bake the rocks because it would have taken 3 or 4 batches to do it in the oven, but more importantly we have a 4-year-old and especially a (now) 9-month-old whom I did not want to subject to house fumes
And it's just too cold to open all windows and hope for the best.
Any suggestions? water changes every 2 days? keep water pH low with dissolved muriatic acid?
right now it's sitting in the basement, i removed the pump and 2nd trash can. I did a water change last weekend and put salt water into the trash can this time, pH>9.
The main difference with this batch of MMLR from my previous batch that's now in my tank is that I used Federal White Cement, mabye much more carbonation going on. I think it's Type II.
thanks,
G.
goldmaniac
New member
I'm frustrated with the kuring time.. if you can't tell. any other similar experiences?
Rustylugnuts
Powdered Toast Man
Goldmaniac what size rocks are we kuring? Maybe you could take out all of the smaller rocks and test the pH of the water in a separate container after a day. I'm thinking that the larger (thicker) pieces may be still raising the pH while the smaller rocks could be ready to be seeded with LR in SW. Increasing WC's may be the way to go.
I have question myself would a buffer be worth trying out to extend the life of soaking water or to emulate a larger volume of water?
I have question myself would a buffer be worth trying out to extend the life of soaking water or to emulate a larger volume of water?
goldmaniac
New member
yes good thought... let me see if I can still provide the pics...
<img src="http://www.goldmaniac.com/fishtank/mm_live_rock_sept_07/bridges.jpg" border="0" alt="">
<img src="http://www.goldmaniac.com/fishtank/mm_live_rock_sept_07/bridges_close.jpg" border="0" alt="">
<img src="http://www.goldmaniac.com/fishtank/mm_live_rock_sept_07/bridges_close2.jpg" border="0" alt="">
<img src="http://www.goldmaniac.com/fishtank/mm_live_rock_sept_07/bridges.jpg" border="0" alt="">
<img src="http://www.goldmaniac.com/fishtank/mm_live_rock_sept_07/bridges_close.jpg" border="0" alt="">
<img src="http://www.goldmaniac.com/fishtank/mm_live_rock_sept_07/bridges_close2.jpg" border="0" alt="">
goldmaniac
New member
ok, as you can see, they're big, bu t not THICK, really. no 4" thick rock here, just large and open.
i'm starting to think that maybe I should divide the white cement and the grey cement pieces, re-test pH.
i'm starting to think that maybe I should divide the white cement and the grey cement pieces, re-test pH.
goldmaniac
New member
each piece has four feet, if you look down at these pieces, they resemble a "Y", with splits forward-backward, as well as up/down and left/right.
Insane Reefer
New member
Hey Goldman!!! Long time no hear
More details, please.
What exactly is the pH? Are you positive that the test is good/accurate? And if using a strip test of some sort, you aren't dragging the strip up the side of the bin, right (that would pick up the precipitate and alter the test). How often were you changing water?
I'd like you to try something. Empty the bins and give them a good cleaning - use a bit of vinegar or other acid to make sure that all precipitate is removed from the bin. Now allow the rock to dry completely, and then refill. Let soak for 1-3 days. Repeat. Do this for a week and then see what a new pH reading is.
Carbonation should lower the pH, not cause it to rise - if you are still "hot", then you still have calcium hydrates leeching, and not turning into carbonation. By trying the multiple wet-dry cycles, you can hasten carbonation. I did something similar this fall with some rock on the porch/garden - turned a sprinkler on it for about half a hour every other day when watering the garden, and after about 3 weeks it tested 9ish. 9ish is starting to look like it is safe enough, esp if you buffer when needed.
HTH
More details, please.
What exactly is the pH? Are you positive that the test is good/accurate? And if using a strip test of some sort, you aren't dragging the strip up the side of the bin, right (that would pick up the precipitate and alter the test). How often were you changing water?
I'd like you to try something. Empty the bins and give them a good cleaning - use a bit of vinegar or other acid to make sure that all precipitate is removed from the bin. Now allow the rock to dry completely, and then refill. Let soak for 1-3 days. Repeat. Do this for a week and then see what a new pH reading is.
Carbonation should lower the pH, not cause it to rise - if you are still "hot", then you still have calcium hydrates leeching, and not turning into carbonation. By trying the multiple wet-dry cycles, you can hasten carbonation. I did something similar this fall with some rock on the porch/garden - turned a sprinkler on it for about half a hour every other day when watering the garden, and after about 3 weeks it tested 9ish. 9ish is starting to look like it is safe enough, esp if you buffer when needed.
HTH
goldmaniac
New member
yep, that sure does help. vinegar the sides of the rubbermaid trashcan, dry it out, and retry. You're right; the sides of the can are pretty cruddy
i'm using 'lil test strips from eBay, not wiping the side, carefully dipping into a clean part on the surface of the water. at LEAST pH=9. and I did a H2O change with salt water, and put the old salt water into the bucket. Tested with a Salifert test kit and it was off the charts, pH=9+
thanks for the carbonation correction...
I'll let 'em dry and refill. Maybe i'm near the end, I certainly hope so. I've got lots of plugs i want to place, and right now i still have only eggcrate sitting on top of my mmlr in my display, waiting for this final batch to go in..
thanks Insane. nice to see you're still keeping an eye on this thread, which is HUGE!! hahah
i'm using 'lil test strips from eBay, not wiping the side, carefully dipping into a clean part on the surface of the water. at LEAST pH=9. and I did a H2O change with salt water, and put the old salt water into the bucket. Tested with a Salifert test kit and it was off the charts, pH=9+
thanks for the carbonation correction...
I'll let 'em dry and refill. Maybe i'm near the end, I certainly hope so. I've got lots of plugs i want to place, and right now i still have only eggcrate sitting on top of my mmlr in my display, waiting for this final batch to go in..
thanks Insane. nice to see you're still keeping an eye on this thread, which is HUGE!! hahah
Insane Reefer
New member
NP Goldman
You really should be done with those. What recipe did you use? If it is the salt rock, it might be that the middles still had/have salt in them and since it is soooo slow to dissolve out without extra measures, it could be prolonging the kure.
I'd divide them into the batches you cast them in, to see if one batch is done while the other might not be.
If you haven't done so, I'd add heat to the equation - a tank heater cranked up will help no matter what the problem is - stuff disolves into warm water faster than it does cold water.
If you are really just fed up, and have the means, try using really hot water - a pot on the stove would work. Keep the water at below 160°F and you should be ok. Several hours of that will do a lot for the leeching.
Let us know how it goes
You really should be done with those. What recipe did you use? If it is the salt rock, it might be that the middles still had/have salt in them and since it is soooo slow to dissolve out without extra measures, it could be prolonging the kure.
I'd divide them into the batches you cast them in, to see if one batch is done while the other might not be.
If you haven't done so, I'd add heat to the equation - a tank heater cranked up will help no matter what the problem is - stuff disolves into warm water faster than it does cold water.
If you are really just fed up, and have the means, try using really hot water - a pot on the stove would work. Keep the water at below 160°F and you should be ok. Several hours of that will do a lot for the leeching.
Let us know how it goes
goldmaniac
New member
thanks IR
by the time I found white portland cement, I had the recipe worked out to my liking.
1 part white portland cement
1 part used refugium sand
2 parts Morton's water conditioner rock salt. blue bag. the normal stuff.
I've been running a little Rio 2500 in the trash cans this whole time to keep everyting moving; I'll try putting a heater in, but my basement is above 65 degrees, even in this dead of winter, so I didn't think of the heat aspect.
Unfortunately, these pieces are pretty lengthy so putting them in a pot on the stove would be tough; these pieces are quite porous so I thought all salt would be dissolved by now, but you could very well be correct that the salt is still dissolving and thus exposing new MMLR surfaces. A taste test, every 2-3 weeks, has never exposed any salt in the kuring water.
\ i don't know.. i've dried out the pieces and will place them into a different tub and fill with water and report back...
by the time I found white portland cement, I had the recipe worked out to my liking.
1 part white portland cement
1 part used refugium sand
2 parts Morton's water conditioner rock salt. blue bag. the normal stuff.
I've been running a little Rio 2500 in the trash cans this whole time to keep everyting moving; I'll try putting a heater in, but my basement is above 65 degrees, even in this dead of winter, so I didn't think of the heat aspect.
Unfortunately, these pieces are pretty lengthy so putting them in a pot on the stove would be tough; these pieces are quite porous so I thought all salt would be dissolved by now, but you could very well be correct that the salt is still dissolving and thus exposing new MMLR surfaces. A taste test, every 2-3 weeks, has never exposed any salt in the kuring water.
\ i don't know.. i've dried out the pieces and will place them into a different tub and fill with water and report back...
Insane Reefer
New member
I too think it unlikely that they still have salt in them, but then I would also think it unlikely that they wouldn't have kured by now, lol
If you can get the water up to 90-100°F, that can really speed things up, esp with the PH to move it around. Sort of like adding sugar to tea - if the tea is cold, the sugar just spins around in the glass, but when you sugar hot tea, it immediately disolves. Same principle here. Really fresh rock can raise the pH to 12 in less than 4 hours in a bath this warm - one of the MRS Rocks I just did as the test run, the smallest of the 3, kured in 11 days, with no acid, just 90°F water, changed often...
Leave the rocks in for 3 days, and then test pH. If it is still high, drain and let dry, and repeat. If over 3 days it doesn't rise to above 8.5-9pH, then it should be safe enough to use in the system...
If you can get the water up to 90-100°F, that can really speed things up, esp with the PH to move it around. Sort of like adding sugar to tea - if the tea is cold, the sugar just spins around in the glass, but when you sugar hot tea, it immediately disolves. Same principle here. Really fresh rock can raise the pH to 12 in less than 4 hours in a bath this warm - one of the MRS Rocks I just did as the test run, the smallest of the 3, kured in 11 days, with no acid, just 90°F water, changed often...
Leave the rocks in for 3 days, and then test pH. If it is still high, drain and let dry, and repeat. If over 3 days it doesn't rise to above 8.5-9pH, then it should be safe enough to use in the system...
