The Ultimate DIY Rocks!

Hey Jflip2002, Welcome to the Thread :wave:
Nice work on the shelf. Looks like it will be a nice clean layout when it is all done.
We don't worry so much about dissolved solids when we kure rock. As you can see yourself, mature, aged cement still registers on a TDS...
We simply are looking for the safe pH range of around 8.5 - there is nothing in cement that is particularly dangerous, excepting the hydroxides that cause the high initial pH. Most of the stuff that will still be "leeching" after the pH has dropped will be "safe" for our tanks. And most of us just use tap water to kure - save the membranes and resins for tank water ;)

Hey Quagmire! Type "S" is a "specialty" masonry cement. One of it's perks is to be moderately sulfate resistant, which is good fr a saltwater environment, but it will tend to be a denser cement, just so you know. There is no reason not to use that spare cement if it's there to be used...

HTH!
:)
 
Thanks IR. I'll pick it up tomorrow along with some type II that he has and start my first attempt at DYI rock. I will make one of each and see how it goes. Wish i could find the white stuff somewhere. My ingredients will consist of Crushed Coral (chuncky style), some fine grade Carib sea, salt, and cement. Sound about right to you?
 
Insane Reefer, I have contemplated this for some time. If White Portland isn't readily available, do you see any reason why white Tile thin set could not be used. It lists similar ingredients to white Portland?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12887817#post12887817 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
Hey Jflip2002, Welcome to the Thread :wave:
Nice work on the shelf. Looks like it will be a nice clean layout when it is all done.
We don't worry so much about dissolved solids when we kure rock. As you can see yourself, mature, aged cement still registers on a TDS...
We simply are looking for the safe pH range of around 8.5 - there is nothing in cement that is particularly dangerous, excepting the hydroxides that cause the high initial pH. Most of the stuff that will still be "leeching" after the pH has dropped will be "safe" for our tanks. And most of us just use tap water to kure - save the membranes and resins for tank water ;)


Well awesome then. I tested my tank water and my rock curing water (about 2-3 days old) and their pH matched within about .2. So I went ahead and put one of the blocks in the tank. I woke up this morning, and my skimmer went crazy overnight, it pulled out all kinds of gunk. Im imagining it was something from the rock I added in. I guess we'll just see how this goes. And if all goes well, I can have another pice in the tank in a couple of weeks.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12888613#post12888613 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by eddybabyhd
Insane Reefer, I have contemplated this for some time. If White Portland isn't readily available, do you see any reason why white Tile thin set could not be used. It lists similar ingredients to white Portland?

Howdy, Eddybabyhd! Welcome to the Thread :wavehand:
I'm pretty sure that Sunkool uses grout for his rock and seems to have no complaints and I believe a couple of others have too. Actually, what I end up with is essentially a grout; I add some hydrated lime to my cement before mixing, which is the main difference between the two - that and the sand...

Jflip2002. I'm sure your skimmer did go nutz for a while; the chemistry in your tank changed somewhat with the new rock and that always seems to affect skimmers. Keep us posted on how it goes and get us some pictures, please ;)
 
Hello Calvin!
welcome.gif


And to the Thread :)

Solar Salt Crystals generally come in "Course" and "Extra Course" - if I had to guess, I'd say Jflip is using Extra Course...
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12888006#post12888006 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
Sure does :)
Let us know how it goes.
[/QUOTE I made my first MMLR using the info from this thread. I'm very pleased. It is a 12"x16" slab that i will be using as a shelf. It won't be ready until all the curing and kuring is complete. Sorry for not posting a pic. My photo is to large apparently. Anyway thanks IR and all the others for the helpfull tips. My next creation is under way. Bigger and better. Thanks again, Quag.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12887018#post12887018 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Jflip2002
and here are some pics of my work and my ideas....

I should really get some pics of the salt covered rock, and how it looks today. Its coming alog well, and it seems pretty light!

I used just plain old grey portland, and some morton rock salt. Thats all. About 4:1 salt to portland. And 2 half cinder blocks for the caves....
Jflip i'm curious why you put the salt on the top of your rocks? Does it give the rock a realistic looking texture? And do you add some salt to your mix prior to the pour?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11556425#post11556425 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by lowfi
Is it possible to update the methods and time frames of procedures to kure the rock? its all beginning to jumble together


Bump, I would like to know as well, please.......: )
 
Welcome to the thread, Kookerson :)
I answered that question on the following page - things haven't really changed much...

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11562063#post11562063 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer

Cure = hydration and hardening of cement or concrete.
Kure = any process that renders rock with a safe pH, typically accomplished with water baths.

For "by the book" curing of rock, leave the rock in a warm, damp place for 7-28 days. The longer you leave it alone the more able it will be to withstand chemical attacks. Then proceed with the kure.
For Steam curing, around 18 hours is the target time for the block industry to produce "mature" blocks, though the actual steam portion is generally only 4-12 hours - this depends on several variables. Once cooled, kuring can commence.

Kuring takes as long as it takes. Traditionally, rock goes into a bath of water and water changes occur as the pH of the kure solution rises above 11 or 12 - this will be frequent in the beginning and tapering off as the calcium hydroxide is leeched out.

If your rock is fully cured (either steamed, properly cured through age or by chemical admixture), the kure can be sped with a very weak acid bath (no more than 1/4 cup vinegar to 1 gallon of water), which will pull the calcium hydroxide out into solution faster, but again, the potential for damage is an issue.

However you kure your rock, keep a few things in mind.

Never use excessive heat on rock - anything over 160° is considered excessive. After reading and reading, I can say with confidence that boiling rock is about the worst thing you can do to it. You can heat the kure solution to no more then 160°F, and this will speed the kure - a tank heater will raise the temp to around 90° and be a safe gentle heat. You can also use a candy thermometer in a pot on the stove and keep the temp at the correct level.

Acid of any form is detrimental to cement, so it's use should be sparing, if at all.

Never "shock" the rock. Taking cold rock and putting it in hot water can form micro-cracks, which over time can cause rock to crumble. The opposite is also true. Allow rock to slowly rise to target temperature for the best results.
 
As this seems to be THE DIY rocks place...
I made a few test rocks and the ones I like the best are the ones I made with white Portland and crushed oyster shells only.
Have anyone experienced them in their tank ? Is it fine to use just oyster shells with the cement ?
I made the mix very dry and ended up with incredibly porous rocks (didn't use salt), I'm also very pleased with the look...
Just want to make sure that they will be OK for the long term use and that they won't leech any more or any longer than other type of rock.
Thanks !
 
Pulled my rocks out of the mold over the weekend. The branching one i made crumbled and is pretty brittle. The others seem fine though.

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My kuring buckets

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Nice results and good color impur.

Sorry your branch broke.

You could probably epoxy putty the main pieces back together and it will be a lot harder once its done with wet cure. I like the small cave you made with that middle pic.

They look porous but strong.
 
Hey Flynn!
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Sure you can; I think GARF's basic recipe is simply OS and cement. Conventional cement wisdom says that adding some sand to the mix makes a stronger finished product, but there is nothing wrong with only using OS to make MLR. You might hear some folks claim that it adds phosphates, that they've tested it and found phosphates, but if there are phosphates (I have never found evidence of this myself), it will be in a finite amount and very quickly consumed by opportunistic organisms. Same with silica sand - only so much goes in, only so much will be "usable" and what is usable will be quickly consumed...

Great job, Impur! Although that sucks about the branching piece.
Did you notice a difference in overall strength with leaving it to cure longer?
ANd try to find yourself a bigger kuring bin, dude! No wonder it is taking you forever to kure rocks! With that volume of water, you'd need to do almost bi-hourly water changes at the beginning to make any headway, and I'm sure you aren't doing that - I know I wouldn't do that!
I did some tests when I kured out the 3 rocks I made for my 'Cube. Two were started in water, in separate 5g buckets, and for the first 3 days, it took less than 6 hours for my single rock to bring the pH up to 14. And once it is up to 14, I don't think much happens kuring-wise, but I'm not a chemist, so I don't know...

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And folks, go easy on the "Porosity". The more porous your rock is, the more likely it is to turn to gravel in your SW system. Cement is protected from chemical attack, in part, by its' denseness. That is why things like micro-silica and fly ash are used in cement - to make denser cement. When we make really porous cement, we open the cement up to chemical attack and make it more likely to completely fail.

I had a RC member (name withheld for privacy) send me a few samples of rock he had been making. I hope he will forgive me for using him as an example.

He made really, really porous rock. The problem was that it simply was falling apart, especially the test piece he had put into his system. He wanted to see what my thoughts on it were so he shipped me a few pieces. Well, I think (in part) he used to high of a ratio of CC, resulting in too porous of a mix without enough "glue". There simply wasn't enough cement to hold it all together.

This is one piece he sent; I think this might have been the piece in his tank as it has what appear to be green algae stains on it.

badrock1.jpg


This is a really dark and bad video of me breaking up one of his pieces with my fingers:



I'm not really sure where the craze for "sieve rock" came from, but it isn't necessary and will often lead to failed rock.

Some might say "well, won't it work better if it is more porous?"
I don't know. I can't find any research on LR as a housing for bacteria verses porosity. But I can find a LOT of articles that make me think that you can actually have problems with rock that can house a ton of bacteria.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2006-24,GGLD:en&q=Allelopathy+bacteria

Allelopathy is something we all know of because corals use it. Bacteria also uses it. A colony that is encroached upon by another colony may dump chemicals into the system as a way to warn the other bacteria off or to even kill it outright. In a system where you have nitrate and nitrite consuming bacteria, what do you think their main chemical weapons would be?
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...cd=1&q=Allelopathy+bacteria+nitrates&spell=1

For more information on Cement Chemical Attack:
http://www.sustainableconcrete.org.uk/main.asp?page=195
http://books.google.com/books?id=1B...hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=10&ct=result

The moral of this story is that we don't need to make pumice for MLR to work like a champ in our tanks. We've all seen real LR, and how "porous" it is (or isn't), and we know that it works. If it isn't broke, don't fix it...

Hope this helps a bit.
:)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12953028#post12953028 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer

ANd try to find yourself a bigger kuring bin, dude! No wonder it is taking you forever to kure rocks! With that volume of water, you'd need to do almost bi-hourly water changes at the beginning to make any headway, and I'm sure you aren't doing that - I know I wouldn't do that!

I use the effulent from my RO filter to do continual water changes. Works great and means at least all that water I used to just run down my drain is actually being used for something now.
 
That's awesome, CMPenny :)
But keep in mind that cement does absorb stuff, like the waste chemicals and minerals; I've not run across anyone who has experienced problems with it, but you should keep that in mind if you do notice undue algae growth or other problems. At one point I was selling my rock unkured to the LFS (he got a pretty good discount on it) and he was kuring it the same way...
 
My water goes through a water softner first and we have city water that is treated for heavy metals at the city treatment plant so I'm not too worried bout any nasty stuff being absorbed by the cement from the water. If that was a problem it seems like you would have the same issue using your regular tap water. Granted the levels of impurities are somewhat higher but we aren't talking about toxic levels.
 
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