Re: Just stuff!
Re: Just stuff!
Welcome to the thread,
WHAT IT IS :wave:
It's always great to get someone new who is all fired up about MLR
I actually read your post last night, and you had so many idea's, that I needed sometime to think about my reply
So here we go.
2) For good porous cement, all you need to do is NOT use water for your wet content...NO NO...but instead simply use fresh pig's blood...YES oh YES...Sounds really disgusting (I know) but will create ten's of thousands of wee airpockets in the cement once it is cured. This is a technique that the ancient Egyptians used during their glory days of monolithic construction. Even they knew that small airpockets in mortar will make it much stronger and lighter. The basic principle here is that the blood cells will dessicate (dry up) similar to a grape turning into a raisin.
For those interested in ancient cements (which blow our modern cements out of the water), this is an article by one of the foremost researchers into ancient cements.
http://www.nabataea.net/cement.html
Romans are actually the one's known for adding blood (as well as milk and animal fat), and they did it so the rock would resist the freeze-thaw cycle, as porous rock can withstand the expansion and contraction better than "solid" matrix cement can. Porous rock is
not stronger, just more resistant to freezing.
While this is a
great idea, and I see absolutely no reason that this wouldn't work or be "bad" for our systems, there are a lot of potential issues. Smell and availability being big one's. Most people are making MLR in their homes, and rotting blood stinks to high heaven. And you can't walk into a "Piggly-Wiggly" or an "A&P" and ask for a pint of blood - one would need a butcher or slaughter house/abattoir to acquire blood in volume. And my last concern would be one of health risk. Not sure if playing with fresh blood is the best thing one can do. There are several diseases that could theoretically be transmitted through blood, so people might want to keep that in mind...
There are several "air-entraining" admixtures that can be purchased at most masonry supplies, that do the same thing; whether they are "safe" for the aquarium, we don't know, which is why most of use haven't tried them...
Blood meal would be my choice if I were going to try something like this, but not sure if it would produce the same results.
1) THE THOUGHT...."Pasta Sand" or "Rice Sand"! Many sites suggest using pasta or rice in the mixture. ...NOW THE QUESTION...Would the remains of the pasta/rice in the MMLR cause water quality problems in the long term application of MMLR in an aquarium?
Pasta, or pretty much any food product, does not tend to work. I tried really tiny pasta called "acini di pepe", and even with tiny pasta, it was a failure. The stuff just won't degrade in water, especially the remains deep in the rock.
First off, as Goldman pointed out, any sort of expansion within curing cement causes
micro-fractures, which can lead to rock failure. Second problem, the outer layers of the food product will tend to absorb some of the cement product, and you end up with a cement fortified foody bit - like an M&M with it's candy shell - only there isn't much melting going on when this happens. And to answer your question, if one could get all the pasta/rice out, then no, there should be no problems with water quality, but I've not known anyone who could get it
all out.
2) THE THOUGHT..."Pasta Sand" or "Rice Sand" forms! Applying the same concept as above, "Pasta/Rice sand" could be used to give the casting of the MMLR a nice pitted texture... NOW THE QUESTION...Has anyone tried this yet? Any positive results?
I've tried bread stuffing, but that drew bugs and got sort of icky - not something I recommend doing, and didn't do much for texture. Honestly, if you want texture, cast in salt. While salt isn't the best thing for cement, at least it comes off, and I'm afraid pasta or rice would stick and not come off...
3) THE THOUGHT..."Bridal Veil Reinforcement"! No contractor would ever build a concrete structure without some form of reinforcement (ie rebar/fiberglass/wire mesh). Since most of these reinforcing materials are detrimental (or at least not conducive) to a healthy reef environment, nor are they easy enough to work with, another "easy-n-cheap" option should be used...NOW THE QUESTION...Has anyone tried creating their MMLR with a reinforcement of nylon bridal veils? What about nylon window screen material?
I can't answer for what others have done, my thoughts are that nylon window screen "dry-rots", and bridal veil disintegrates outdoors in a few months (I know this from experience - when we got married, it was outdoors, an we missed a few bits of veiling, which were found in the grass, falling apart, a few months later). Cement, being so alkaline, would probably cause the fabric to fail faster, but that is just a guess. Your idea for reinforcement is a
good one, and many folks here on the thread have used reinforcement, but we tend to use either "light diffuser"/egg-crate, plastic crafting canvas or "gutter-guard" and/or PVC pipe; these being strong, safe, easy to work with and cheap. As far as a fiber-type reinforcement, I've given this a
lot of thought, but keep hitting dead-ends. The only fiber I can find and that I know is reasonably durable (especially for our purpose) is fiberglass. I know that a lot of folks have used fiberglass cement to make rocks. They tend to have to use a torch to burn off the fibers that inevitably end up sticking out of the rock, which leaves little melted nodules all over the rock, but other-wise
seems to be ok. My question is that with all the health concerns over humans breathing fiberglass particles, would this not be an even greater potential problem in a saltwater tank? My gut tells me that this could really be an issue, but I've not seen anything either way to support or refute this, so there it is, for what it is worth.
Does anyone know of a fiber type that might be useful for this purpose? It would need to be something resistant to rotting and doesn't pose a potential health hazard. Maybe someone there knows of some new fiber, or even an old or overlooked one?
4) NOW THE QUESTION...Would RO/DI water help to "Leach out"/"Draw out" the calcium crap from the MM rock while it kures? (Since it is void of any TDS content..would it be better?)
This is a tricky one. For one, I've been doing a lot of looking into surface carbonation as an
alternative to the lengthy traditional water-bath, as the bath is really not good for cement that is to be immersed in seawater (the hydrates being leeched out actually help protect the cement). So for me, the question is really more about not needing so much water to begin with.
But I have done simple tests on kuring, and the solutions used, and found little difference between RO/DI and FW. So then I have to ask myself about responsibility. Kuring MLR uses a lot of water, which many feel is a resource not to be squandered. Making RO/DI takes a lot of water too, and results in a lot of nasty "waste-water", as well.
Unfortunately, it would take more sophisticated equipment (and space) then what I have, to run tests, of the precision needed, to prove this idea, one way or the other.
My thoughts are since the kure time of rock kured either way seems to be pretty darn close, and RO/DI costs so much more in terms of resources and the like, that I'll stick with FW.
5) THE THOUGHT... "Sparkling water"...NOW THE QUESTION...would "Club soda" or some other type of "fizzy water" be able to be used as the wet content?
Ok, need clarification on this one. Do you mean adding the Soda water to the dry cement as the wetting agent, or do you mean to kure the rock in?
I've made 2 batches that were made using only carbonated water, no regular water (last summer some time if you wanted to backtrack to look for it). I sort of forgot about them and they sat, moist curing for like 4 months. Since they were "ruined" for research purposes, I just threw them in a barrel of "ugly rock" (my rejects and post-test rock). The LFS asked for some rock, and since winter isn't a productive time for me, all I could offer was this ugly rock. All the pieces made with normal water, kured normally (and fairly fast too as most had been sitting around for several months),
except for the Soda Water rock. It is
still in a tote of water, trying to kure.
But it is a very porous seeming rock, lots of little pores.
I've read a bit on adding Co2 to cement, and it seems that it needs to either be "super-critical" or needs to be entrained into the mixture to have the desired effect.
And adding Co2 to the kuring bin water creates carbonic acid, which, being acid, isn't the best thing for the cement...
Sorry for the long and scattered thought processes in my post. I have read many (but not all) of this thread. There has been many suggestions and ideas, but not much along the way of feedback or results (ie..adding cement coloring to MM rock)
No worries there
It wasn't that hard to follow. Wonder if that says something about us?
It is
good that someone is using their thinking cap and pitching in. Keep it up, will you?
I think if you read carefully, you will find results, or lack of results posted for most "experiments". The coloring for instance, worked pretty well for MMM, once the odor dissipated, it kured out as expected - somewhat lighter then at its casting, but with no other seeming problems. He wrote me the other day and says he will send me pictures. If he will allow me to, I will post them when he does (if he doesn't himself). His results are pretty much what I experienced and posted on my experiments with green mosaic gout coloring. Coloring will tend to "dull" during the kure, even if a lot is used, and some may leech into the kure bin as well. Once the rock is kured, there seems to be no difference in colored or non-colored rock. I'd always read the MSDS on a coloring and keep an eye out for things like copper, etc., but otherwise, have fun with it.
So have you made any rock? If so, you should post some pictures
I love pictures
If you haven't made any rock, when are you?
Keep us posted, and thanks!
:rollface:
