Nick, dude we need to go for a pint and have a good moan lmfao.... Seeing Mandarins, scooter blennies and blue cheeked gobbies starving in shops have always been a hate of mine, what really gets me is when a shop gets a little tank up on their counter with one mandarin in it grr yes please send me info although im still on the fence re getting back into the hobby though.
The unethical side......
- Thread starter PROlife
- Start date
mtc1, Your post left me speechless so I will just leave it there.
Tomyeah, thanks, mate yes will defo look them up
ste187, Agree but I/we should all try to do our bit, don't you think?
re the finding a shop, no maybe not my ideal shop but a shop that's making an effort and show an understand of each animal they keep will be good enough for me.
Salty_boris, but does it not make good business sense to be conservationists when dealing with animals?
Ridgeway, An idea, but for me, it's the corals more than the fish SPS mainly, fish-wise I like the dottyback orchid and springers being my fav
gromero, there must be more otherwise why would companies like de-jong have such an extensive captive breed and cultured corals list
Randy, this "The truth is I didn't really have to order anything as they simply went up the road and bought it before coming back when it caused problems" and then coming back to you for info always annoyed me too.
And for everything ells, you said I agree with, id also thought I heard some time ago that TMC stopped breeding. Had a friend on here many years ago
how helped me loads he was a fish health adviser (wombat I think his name was) he work in there breeding fasilitys before moving to the US.
Tomyeah, thanks, mate yes will defo look them up
ste187, Agree but I/we should all try to do our bit, don't you think?
re the finding a shop, no maybe not my ideal shop but a shop that's making an effort and show an understand of each animal they keep will be good enough for me.
Salty_boris, but does it not make good business sense to be conservationists when dealing with animals?
Ridgeway, An idea, but for me, it's the corals more than the fish SPS mainly, fish-wise I like the dottyback orchid and springers being my fav
gromero, there must be more otherwise why would companies like de-jong have such an extensive captive breed and cultured corals list
Randy, this "The truth is I didn't really have to order anything as they simply went up the road and bought it before coming back when it caused problems" and then coming back to you for info always annoyed me too.
And for everything ells, you said I agree with, id also thought I heard some time ago that TMC stopped breeding. Had a friend on here many years ago
how helped me loads he was a fish health adviser (wombat I think his name was) he work in there breeding fasilitys before moving to the US.
Punchanello
Member
I get your point PROlife although the delivery could have been better 
I'm new to the hobby. Before I got serious about starting up a reef aquarium I knew there were some ethical issues which I was determined to navigate in a way that I could be comfortable with. When I started to really research I was actually shocked by the practices of many reefers. I think there are a few attitudes at play:
1. Fish are seen by many as a commodity which can be replaced and in many cases far too cheaply. I don't think people would treat a dog or a cat the way some treat fish. They can suffer pain, trauma, stress just like any other animal. They should be treated with care and diligence.
2. As a society we tend to give business a free pass. We excuse poor practices because "businesses are just reacting to what the market wants". Some pretty terrible things have happened in human history that have been justified using that excuse. If you profit from the hobby you have a duty for the welfare of animals in your care just as all hobbyists do.
3. Defensiveness towards activism, new laws and criticism of the hobby won't get us anywhere. There's a problem, and we all see it. Attacking those that point out the problem instead of being being part of the solution, is a one way ticket to the end of the hobby.
4. If there is one media that throws up the worst practices in this hobby and broadcasts it to the world it is Facebook. As the great Obi-Wan once said "You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy". Bad advice on Facebook has probably killed more coral and fish than any other single source.
FWIW I think this hobby can be done ethically and lots of experienced reefers on here have shown that.
I'm new to the hobby. Before I got serious about starting up a reef aquarium I knew there were some ethical issues which I was determined to navigate in a way that I could be comfortable with. When I started to really research I was actually shocked by the practices of many reefers. I think there are a few attitudes at play:
1. Fish are seen by many as a commodity which can be replaced and in many cases far too cheaply. I don't think people would treat a dog or a cat the way some treat fish. They can suffer pain, trauma, stress just like any other animal. They should be treated with care and diligence.
2. As a society we tend to give business a free pass. We excuse poor practices because "businesses are just reacting to what the market wants". Some pretty terrible things have happened in human history that have been justified using that excuse. If you profit from the hobby you have a duty for the welfare of animals in your care just as all hobbyists do.
3. Defensiveness towards activism, new laws and criticism of the hobby won't get us anywhere. There's a problem, and we all see it. Attacking those that point out the problem instead of being being part of the solution, is a one way ticket to the end of the hobby.
4. If there is one media that throws up the worst practices in this hobby and broadcasts it to the world it is Facebook. As the great Obi-Wan once said "You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy". Bad advice on Facebook has probably killed more coral and fish than any other single source.
FWIW I think this hobby can be done ethically and lots of experienced reefers on here have shown that.
Punchanello, Yes my delivery is always poor, I'm not very good with the written word and as for spelling well grr.
Everything you said is spot on and I agree completely, the obi-wan bit made me laugh.
As a community what would the next step be for me and those that share my thoughts?
Everything you said is spot on and I agree completely, the obi-wan bit made me laugh.
As a community what would the next step be for me and those that share my thoughts?
homer1475
New member
This entire industry/hobby is unethical. To think otherwise is just fooling yourself.
To think someone that's in it to make money is going to tie up their "money" for weeks at a time(because its the ethical thing to do)while they QT their "product", and are not making money is not a smart business model. The only way LFS's make any money is to move product. Unfortunately that "product" happens to be livestock.
The whole thing is people don't see animals as other people(living breathing sentient beings), therefore their lives are not worth as much. No one cries when 100 yellow tangs die in transport, but let that be one of your relatives that died on the plane ride to see you and there will be tears.
To think someone that's in it to make money is going to tie up their "money" for weeks at a time(because its the ethical thing to do)while they QT their "product", and are not making money is not a smart business model. The only way LFS's make any money is to move product. Unfortunately that "product" happens to be livestock.
The whole thing is people don't see animals as other people(living breathing sentient beings), therefore their lives are not worth as much. No one cries when 100 yellow tangs die in transport, but let that be one of your relatives that died on the plane ride to see you and there will be tears.
Found this interesting if anyone is interested.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=339&v=bZ8RUBUD0y0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=339&v=bZ8RUBUD0y0
