They broke me. Finally.

[ljosh]

The Hanna checker will probably not show much with all the exports and your diatoms and Dino.

I don't think the Hanna checker picks up organically bound phosphates. So even if the Phosphate level is tested at 0 in your water the Dino will have phosphates to use...

“In addition, algae, and the symbiotic bacteria that live on their surface,
can secrete phosphatase enzymes that liberate usable
orthophosphate from organically bound phosphate.”

Excerpt From: J. Charles Delbeek & Julian Sprung. “The Reef Aquarium Volume Three.”

 

[Skim]

You may have high levels of Silicates in your water supply. You may want to try SpectraPures Silicabuster Di cartridge. Just going by memory I believe Dino's love Silicate and being a new tank with fresh Substrate which tend to have Silicates and some more then others that is why after a certain amount of time they die off, food supply is gone, you may want to go a little heavier on the GFO, just watch your Alk. as GFO will lower it. You could also look into some of the Bacterial supplements that are sold and try them. The other thing that I have heard some do is increase your light intensity, as the intensity makes the Dino's go into super saturation mode and it burns them up, same reason you may have see some suggest the same for Cyno.

Good luck!

 

[Jscwerve]

Take it easy on the large water changes if you have a lot of fish or coral in your system. A 40% water change is a pretty big shock to a system (in terms of chemistry) that's already shocked with the antibiotic/chemical treatment. You're libel to get an adverse response from your tanks inhabitants.

Regarding getting a Hanna tester.. Great idea but make sure you get the Hanna HI736 ULR phosphorus checker and not the HI713 checker. The HI736 is MUCH more accurate in our target range and is the only phosphate related tester from Hanna that is designated for "Marine" use. The HI713 is not deemed as a "Marine" tester by Hanna and is not suited for the "ultra low range" Po4 levels we target. Just take the reading from the HI736 and multiply by 3.066 to convert phosporus to phosphate in PPB. Then divide by 1000 to convert the results to Po4 in PPM.

I don't normally change that much water. I try to do small changes weekly, it's quicker and easier that way. I did the large change to help rid the system of the chemiclean faster.

Thanks for the advise on the Hannah. While I'm sure the tester they sell at my preferred LFS is the proper one, I will now know if for some reason it is not.

I'm confused. Some people are talking about dino's and some are talking about diatoms. Diatoms have been a problem early on in all my tanks but I've never had dinos. Are they really "normal" in a new tank?

I have dinoflagellates. If it were diatoms I wouldn't care. I was unaware of dinos being part of a cycle either, various algaes, yes. I guess just for the lucky ones. Algae is handled by my livestock. With vigor. I've got two urchins, coralline algae covering everything is nothing by a fantasy. Any other stuff is quickly dispatched by the tangs.

You may have high levels of Silicates in your water supply. You may want to try SpectraPures Silicabuster Di cartridge. Just going by memory I believe Dino's love Silicate and being a new tank with fresh Substrate which tend to have Silicates and some more then others that is why after a certain amount of time they die off, food supply is gone, you may want to go a little heavier on the GFO, just watch your Alk. as GFO will lower it. You could also look into some of the Bacterial supplements that are sold and try them. The other thing that I have heard some do is increase your light intensity, as the intensity makes the Dino's go into super saturation mode and it burns them up, same reason you may have see some suggest the same for Cyno.

Good luck!

Do silicates not show up on a TDS meter? The water coming through my 5 stage starts around 140-150 and is zero coming out. My substrate is also not new, it came from an established system.

Maybe I'll pick up a silicate test kit today. Not that I'd expect to see anything if it is being absorbed immediately.

I hadn't thought of turning the lights UP. Only to treat with blacking out. I'll give that a try this weekend. Can't hurt, not like they are going to get any worse. Question about that is, do they thrive more in the blue, or full spectrum?

 

[jgraz]

If chemi clean worked, then it was not dinos that you had. If you were able to pick up a carpet of them, then it was not dino's either. I would think it was some sort of slime/cyano red/brown? Who knows but both will bubble during lights on and both will come up as a large carpet at times. Dino's will show as a long, bubbly, stringy mess, and will not always be in the same place day to day, as it is free swimming during lights out and forms the masses when lights come on it can form anywhere and everywhere in the tank. Cyano will show in the same area day to day and just spread from there.
Now if it was dino's, well then it will be back in force after that large WC. If it doesn't show up in the next few days you will know it wasn't dino's.

 

[Jscwerve]

If chemi clean worked, then it was not dinos that you had. If you were able to pick up a carpet of them, then it was not dino's either. I would think it was some sort of slime/cyano red/brown? Who knows but both will bubble during lights on and both will come up as a large carpet at times. Dino's will show as a long, bubbly, stringy mess, and will not always be in the same place day to day, as it is free swimming during lights out and forms the masses when lights come on it can form anywhere and everywhere in the tank. Cyano will show in the same area day to day and just spread from there.
Now if it was dino's, well then it will be back in force after that large WC. If it doesn't show up in the next few days you will know it wasn't dino's.

The carpet didn't just "pick up". It wasn't strong enough to hold together under it's own weight and the substrate it was attached to. I kind of rolled it up and removed it with a gravel scooper (basically a perforated dustpan made for aquariums).

I'll see how bad it got when I get home from work today. Can't really see anything in the tank in the mornings when I leave the house.

On a side note: Once I removed all the gunk substrate, did the water change and got my skimmer to calm down my tank looked GREAT! For the evening anyways. :hmm3:

 

[jayball]

For the evening anyways. :hmm3:

For the evening is likely right

Go to the chem forum, there is a huge dino thread that you should read.

 

[slief]

I don't normally change that much water. I try to do small changes weekly, it's quicker and easier that way. I did the large change to help rid the system of the chemiclean faster.

Thanks for the advise on the Hannah. While I'm sure the tester they sell at my preferred LFS is the proper one, I will now know if for some reason it is not.



I have dinoflagellates. If it were diatoms I wouldn't care. I was unaware of dinos being part of a cycle either, various algaes, yes. I guess just for the lucky ones. Algae is handled by my livestock. With vigor. I've got two urchins, coralline algae covering everything is nothing by a fantasy. Any other stuff is quickly dispatched by the tangs.



Do silicates not show up on a TDS meter? The water coming through my 5 stage starts around 140-150 and is zero coming out. My substrate is also not new, it came from an established system.

Maybe I'll pick up a silicate test kit today. Not that I'd expect to see anything if it is being absorbed immediately.

I hadn't thought of turning the lights UP. Only to treat with blacking out. I'll give that a try this weekend. Can't hurt, not like they are going to get any worse. Question about that is, do they thrive more in the blue, or full spectrum?

If I were a betting man, I would bet your LFS does NOT have the correct meter. Most LFS's are not well informed when it comes to the Hanna phosphate testers. They see the term phosphate and assume it's the correct meter to stock but as I said, it's not really designed for testing marine water phosphate in our target ranges. The ULR phosphorus tester is the one you want and most likely, not the one they will have.
For reference, here is the Hanna HI 736 ULR tester. Notice the "marine" logo on the unit.
http://hannainst.com/hi736-phosphorus-ulr.html


This is the HI713 low range checker.. Notice the lack of the "marine" designation. It's great if you are testing phosphates in fresh water where planted tanks ideally prefer higher levels of Po4. Also great if you are testing a pool for Po4 but not well suited for salt water were target ranges are less then .10 ppm Po4.
http://hannainst.com/hi713-phosphate-lr.html

Silca will not necessarily show up on a TDS meter and silica will increase nuisance algae forms including but not limited to Dino's. This is why higher end RODI units such as those from Spectrapure often have a dedicated Silica Buster cartridge.

Lighting can also play a role in nuisance algae growth including Dino. Most algae's and other photosynthetic life forms prefer the whiter/red spectrums. Blue is not well suited for promoting algae growth where as corals need the 420-460nm (blue range) lighting as that is their primary source/range of photosynthetic radiation.

 

[Jscwerve]

For the evening is likely right

Go to the chem forum, there is a huge dino thread that you should read.

Holy cow. Now I've spent hours reading that. Info overload.

If I were a betting man, I would bet your LFS does NOT have the correct meter. Most LFS's are not well informed when it comes to the Hanna phosphate testers. They see the term phosphate and assume it's the correct meter to stock but as I said, it's not really designed for testing marine water phosphate in our target ranges. The ULR phosphorus tester is the one you want and most likely, not the one they will have.
For reference, here is the Hanna HI 736 ULR tester. Notice the "marine" logo on the unit.


Silca will not necessarily show up on a TDS meter and silica will increase nuisance algae forms including but not limited to Dino's. This is why higher end RODI units such as those from Spectrapure often have a dedicated Silica Buster cartridge.

I'd take that bet if I was a betting man!! When I said "LFS", that's a bit general. The store I go to is a specialty coral and marine store with extremely knowledgeable owners. I guess it would be more of a "coral boutique".

I will definitely be looking into a silica specific addition to my RODI. Thanks.


After reading hundreds of posts in the Dino thread in the chem forum, one thing kind of stuck out. It was this post:

Dinos appeared as other algae were being actively removed either chemically (adding an algae killing agent) or by reducing nutrients obsessively (ULNS, heavy GFO, LaCl, carbon dosing,...). This is not a disease of the reef keeper who just lets nutrients go. It's the exact opposite. This is a disease of the obsessive extremist seeking the perfect reef and eliminating algae until something snaps and we show up on the opposite side of normal.

I won't speak for everyone, so please object if your case is different.

I am going to have to reevaluate my system before taking any more steps. It did seem to me that the cleaner I made my tank, the worse they got. Maybe I need to give the fish what they want. More food!!!!! lol.

 

[jayball]

After reading hundreds of posts in the Dino thread in the chem forum, one thing kind of stuck out. It was this post:



I am going to have to reevaluate my system before taking any more steps. It did seem to me that the cleaner I made my tank, the worse they got. Maybe I need to give the fish what they want. More food!!!!! lol.

There is a whole list of recommendations on that thread; none work on their own. I am still working on my Dino problem.

 

[mikeatjac]

Holy cow. Now I've spent hours reading that. Info overload.



I'd take that bet if I was a betting man!! When I said "LFS", that's a bit general. The store I go to is a specialty coral and marine store with extremely knowledgeable owners. I guess it would be more of a "coral boutique".

I will definitely be looking into a silica specific addition to my RODI. Thanks.


After reading hundreds of posts in the Dino thread in the chem forum, one thing kind of stuck out. It was this post:



I am going to have to reevaluate my system before taking any more steps. It did seem to me that the cleaner I made my tank, the worse they got. Maybe I need to give the fish what they want. More food!!!!! lol.

I so fine this statement wrong. Dinos came to to my tank after I got GHA. I did major WC, increase flow, no lights out added uv. 2 months and all is well.

 

[Jscwerve]

OK, Quick update 72hrs later.

Something has definitely changed.

Last night for the first time in several months, there were no air bubbles noticeable on the substrate or any of the rock.

Polyp extension on my goniporas was crazy yesterday! I have no idea why, but I had not seen my burgundy colored one that extended ever. Everything else wide open including my sun coral which usually only opens up in the evenings.

The places where I removed the "carpet" of gunk that was on the bottom, has not grown back yet, or showed signs of doing so. It has only been a few days, I am fully expecting the possibility of waking up in the next few days to a tank covered in the stuff again.

The places that I was unable to remove gunk from seem to be in a holding pattern so to speak. Hasn't spread, hasn't disappeared. No air bubbles trapped in it though.

Time will tell, it's only been three full days since the chemiclean, and I ended the treatment early.

I'm not calling a success by any means. Especially with the ration of backlash I've received by posting the process here. Something has changed and it seems positive (yes, still too early to tell though).

No livestock had any obvious ill effects from the chemiclean.

 

[dkeller_nc]

Something you should realize is that by using substrate from a former reefer that got out of the hobby, you were taking a bit of risk as to the nutrients that substrate was exposed to during that hobbyist's tenure.

It's quite normal for substrate/sand to absorb a good bit of organic material as well as precipitated inorganic phosphate. That's typically why reefers don't re-use sand, they simply buy more. It's also why folks acid-wash their rocks (to remove an outer layer of precipitated phosphate and/or organics).

If you continually run GFO, the reservoir of phosphate will be evenutally depleted, though that can take a few months. Note that you will typically not find a testable concentration of phosphate in the water, though there may be a fairly large reservoir of phosphate in the system.

That said, you should definitely not view a pristine "clean" tank as an ideal to be achieved (it isn't). As your system matures over the course of 2 years, you will have a constant presence of small amounts of various algae other than coralline. That's a good thing - being OCD about algae in a reef tank has caused a lot of disasters.

 

[HippieSmell]

Does UV help with dinos? I'm not sure how free swimming they are.

 

[jayball]

Does UV help with dinos? I'm not sure how free swimming they are.

Most are free swimming at night, others have been found to bury in the sand.