Thinking of Going BB, Whats Your Experience?

[ChadRaay86]

I've been battling high phosphates for about a year now and I'm honestly sick of it. I used to be one of those guys who said BB tanks were unnatural travesties to the reefing community, but I have since wised up

I was wondering what benefit any of you saw, either immediately or long term especially for those of you who had previously been battling high phosphates.

I'd like to start doing this if it would help, but of my phosphates are going to stay the same, I'd rather invest my time in other areas.

Also, I have a large bioload but I'm overskimming. I also used to feed frozen everyday and two sheets of nori (3"x6") (I have a lot of tangs). I have since cut this down to frozen every other day and a single 3"x4" inch piece of nori everyday. I was hoping this would solve my phosphate issues, but alas after a few weeks of the new feeding schedule my results have only come down marginally.

I appreciate the advice!

 

[echopiece]

I started my tank out BB and I just recently added sand. When my tank was BB it still ran fairly high PO4, but my nitrates were always 0. My SPS lacked color and the tank just looked too sterile. I didnt feed all that much at that time and I couldn't understand where my PO4 was coming from. The only thing I can think is my LR is bound up with PO4? But anyway, BB is good for super high flow and keeping the tank clean, but from my experience its not a guarantee that your PO4 will drop radically. Are you running any GFO to help knock it down? How often are you performing water changes?

Now that I have sand, my nitrates are right around 5 ppm and my PO4 stays around 0.07-0.10 and my corals have never looked better! Plus I just like the look of sand, looks more natural.

 

[trueblackpercula]

You should create your system based on your taste. Barebottom is and was for me extremely challenging to maintain. If not don't correctly you may end up with more PO4 then now.

This is a good starting point.
Larger skimmer
Cooking of your live rocks
Tons of water motion to get detritus out of display and into skimmer and filter socks
Cleaning of filter socks every two days max
Import and export of nutrients are critcal. <<< this is why I failed at barebottom.

There is more do a search for cooking live rocks and you shall find the wounderful world of barebottom.

Old tank before the crash

 

[echopiece]

Import and export of nutrients are critcal. <<< this is why I failed at barebottom.

Very good point, I had the same issues!

 

[Spar]

#2 regret in starting up my tank was going with sand. i have been battling for over a year now trying to remove it.

biggest benefit since i have removed 97%+ of my sand was less debris floating around the tank. it is looking much cleaner now.

my favorite quotes from the past in reading about BB vs Sand is:
(1) when i go diving, i don't see any sand, so BB looks natural to me [sand looks forced]
(2) i never see people complaining about their BB tanks, but see sand decision people complaining all the time

since removing sand i have pretty much gutted my peripherals; no longer running GFO mainly. i also rarely run carbon and took down my ozone and Bio pellets. just have caulerpa in my 'fuge helping it out.

 

[echopiece]

#2 regret in starting up my tank was going with sand. i have been battling for over a year now trying to remove it.

Just curious, what was your #1 regret?

 

[Spar]

#1 = overdoing things. i started out with an extremely low bioload (still technically have a low bioload compared to tank size) while was also trying to get SPS going, yet had skimmer, ozone, BP's, GFO, carbon, filter socks and caulerpa all going from the get-go. SPS was always whiting out and/or dieing, etc. and thinking to myself "but why, i have all the toys?!"

took me 2 years (just 1.5 years ago now) to wake up and start pulling back and focusing on only running peripherals when the need arises (e.g. when i see a PO4 or NO3 bump). before, i was stripping out all the nutrients was the ill effect.

so over the last couple years I have been cutting a ton of the 'toys' out and coral is growing like mad and coloring up nicely. just to think if I had started out smarter! just recently i cut out the GFO which is making one of the biggest differences (positive).

 

[houstonhobby]

The answer to phosphates is a reactor with GFO. Keep it filled with new media and it will suck the phosphates out in hours.

As for BB tanks, I used to run a couple of inches of sand and thought that was rad (I am a former planted tank person and used to think 6 inches was a good substrate) but in my 210 I am running just enough to cover the glass, and probably 10-25% of the glass (including all the glass that is under the rocks) has no sand at all. I kind of like the look.

But I don't think of it as a chemistry issue. Take your chemistry issues to the sump is my philosophy.

 

[ChadRaay86]

Thanks for the help Guys! I appreciate the advice and I think I've got a good solution to try in the near term to maybe keep the sandbed intact

I started my tank out BB and I just recently added sand. When my tank was BB it still ran fairly high PO4, but my nitrates were always 0. My SPS lacked color and the tank just looked too sterile. I didnt feed all that much at that time and I couldn't understand where my PO4 was coming from. The only thing I can think is my LR is bound up with PO4? But anyway, BB is good for super high flow and keeping the tank clean, but from my experience its not a guarantee that your PO4 will drop radically. Are you running any GFO to help knock it down? How often are you performing water changes?

Now that I have sand, my nitrates are right around 5 ppm and my PO4 stays around 0.07-0.10 and my corals have never looked better! Plus I just like the look of sand, looks more natural.

Very interesting, I would have never thought that BB tanks were a bad idea or more maintenance than a sand bed. I had thought that I had a bunch of bound up phosphate and that I would get rid of it by taking the sand out. I haven't been keeping up with my filter socks or keeping my flow high enough, so these may be good things to focus on instead of BB. I use Phosguard (the aluminum based GFO equivalent), biopellets (a very small amount) and LACL occasionally in my top off. My goal is to eventually just change my phosguard once a month or every two weeks and use a more reasonable amount. I'll start my filter socks again and put some time in blowing off my rock.

You should create your system based on your taste. Barebottom is and was for me extremely challenging to maintain. If not don't correctly you may end up with more PO4 then now.

This is a good starting point.
Larger skimmer
Cooking of your live rocks
Tons of water motion to get detritus out of display and into skimmer and filter socks
Cleaning of filter socks every two days max
Import and export of nutrients are critcal. <<< this is why I failed at barebottom.

There is more do a search for cooking live rocks and you shall find the wounderful world of barebottom.

Old tank before the crash

Very good point, I had the same issues!

I noticed two things on your list that I need to get better with. Flow is going to be better with the addition of two MP-60s and two MP-40s and I've honestly just been lazy with my filter socks. I'll try these for a few weeks and see if there's a big difference or not.

As far as cooking rock goes, I recently pulled out 50-60 percent of my rock and gave it the ole acid bath, so that should help in the future.

I'm interested to know what made your old tank crash?

#2 regret in starting up my tank was going with sand. i have been battling for over a year now trying to remove it.

biggest benefit since i have removed 97%+ of my sand was less debris floating around the tank. it is looking much cleaner now.

my favorite quotes from the past in reading about BB vs Sand is:
(1) when i go diving, i don't see any sand, so BB looks natural to me [sand looks forced]
(2) i never see people complaining about their BB tanks, but see sand decision people complaining all the time

since removing sand i have pretty much gutted my peripherals; no longer running GFO mainly. i also rarely run carbon and took down my ozone and Bio pellets. just have caulerpa in my 'fuge helping it out.

haha, these were my thoughts as well, but I think I'll give sand another shot (at least in the near term). I think you guys have pointed out a couple of things I can definitely get better at before abandoning my sand bed

Just curious, what was your #1 regret?

I'm thinking he added a damsel :headwally:

 

[echopiece]

Very interesting, I would have never thought that BB tanks were a bad idea or more maintenance than a sand bed. I had thought that I had a bunch of bound up phosphate and that I would get rid of it by taking the sand out. I haven't been keeping up with my filter socks or keeping my flow high enough, so these may be good things to focus on instead of BB. I use Phosguard (the aluminum based GFO equivalent), biopellets (a very small amount) and LACL occasionally in my top off. My goal is to eventually just change my phosguard once a month or every two weeks and use a more reasonable amount. I'll start my filter socks again and put some time in blowing off my rock.

I wouldn't say BB tanks are a "bad idea" or more maintenance, you just need really good import and export. That's what I didn't do and it had ill effects on my tank at that time. I had too much mechanical and chemical filtration and I was stripping my tank. By all means you can try BB but all I was saying, is it might not solve your PO4 issues. Maybe try a few of the above mentioned tips first and then go from there.

P.S. How high is your PO4 right now? What are you using to measure it? Are you getting a lot of nuisance algae, and are your corals not looking good?

 

[ChadRaay86]

I wouldn't say BB tanks are a "bad idea" or more maintenance, you just need really good import and export. That's what I didn't do and it had ill effects on my tank at that time. I had too much mechanical and chemical filtration and I was stripping my tank. By all means you can try BB but all I was saying, is it might not solve your PO4 issues. Maybe try a few of the above mentioned tips first and then go from there.

P.S. How high is your PO4 right now? What are you using to measure it? Are you getting a lot of nuisance algae, and are your corals not looking good?

Coral looks good but my PO4 is around .10-.30 on any given day. Its been hovering around .16-.22 for the last week or so. I have a little bit of nuisance algae, but thats more from taking so much live rock out to acid wash. I'm going to stop being lazy and go back to daily sock changes and I'm also going to up the flow a lot. That coupled with new rock and reduced feeding should get me there. If not, I'll go with the "nuclear" option.

You mentioned the stripping of water and I think the BB tank at my LFS has this issue. Coral in the tank used to look great, but now it seems to have lost its luster and the corals look mediocre. I definitely want to avoid that at all costs. I have noticed that my SPS have taken off over the last month or so, but I attribute this to better control over the big three.

 

[echopiece]

Coral looks good but my PO4 is around .10-.30 on any given day. Its been hovering around .16-.22 for the last week or so. I have a little bit of nuisance algae, but thats more from taking so much live rock out to acid wash. I'm going to stop being lazy and go back to daily sock changes and I'm also going to up the flow a lot. That coupled with new rock and reduced feeding should get me there. If not, I'll go with the "nuclear" option.

You mentioned the stripping of water and I think the BB tank at my LFS has this issue. Coral in the tank used to look great, but now it seems to have lost its luster and the corals look mediocre. I definitely want to avoid that at all costs. I have noticed that my SPS have taken off over the last month or so, but I attribute this to better control over the big three.

What test kit/device are you using for PO4? Have you had it checked elsewhere? Reason I ask is you dont have much algae, and your corals dont look too bad and are growing. When I was having issues with my tank, I was constantly chasing numbers.

 

[Tweaked]

Love my BB! Have done tanks with and without sand, and will never do sand again - JMO. I had a remote sand bed as well- removed it, and am setting a frag system off my tank now in which my friends state "now you can run sand" :deadhorse1:. I said "I don't want sand, so stop pushing it on me" Everyone has their own opinions in this hobby, and its my tank to look at, so as long as I'm happy right. I will say it was harder to keep colors until I upped the feeding and added a dosing pump for acropower. I also run bio pellets, GFO, a large skimmer, carbon passively, and a filter sock.

 

[sahin]

I started my tank out BB and I just recently added sand. When my tank was BB it still ran fairly high PO4, but my nitrates were always 0. My SPS lacked color and the tank just looked too sterile. I didnt feed all that much at that time and I couldn't understand where my PO4 was coming from. The only thing I can think is my LR is bound up with PO4? But anyway, BB is good for super high flow and keeping the tank clean, but from my experience its not a guarantee that your PO4 will drop radically.

A BIG +1 to this.

I run a BB system. My tank is now well over a year old. But for something like 7-8 months I fought a major PO4 battle even though I had no sand in the tank. Yeah, it took that long to kick it down to below 0.03ppm. Lots of GFO use...and money.

So there is no guarantee...In the end I took out a few rocks that used to shed a CRAPLOAD of detritus...that helped a lot and then continued use of GFO brought it down to manageable levels. I also used Lanthanum Chloride with 10 Micron socks for a while.

Now I manage PO4 levels below 0.03ppm WITHOUT the use of any GFO.

BB systems are very easy IMO for nutrient management. However, if the source of PO4 is your rocks, then going BB isnt going to really help.

Aesthetically, BB systems are butt ugly, however, get the nutrients well controlled and your SPS can look awesome.

Here is the most famous BB system I know, and the reason I went BB:
<iframe width="960" height="540" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/gCMwseoP5gY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[echopiece]

sahin, I have seen this WWC tank several times in person and it is simply amazing! Every tank in that store is amazing, and their corals are hands down the nicest I've seen!

 

[sahin]

sahin, I have seen this WWC tank several times in person and it is simply amazing! Every tank in that store is amazing, and their corals are hands down the nicest I've seen!

One of my dreams is to see the WWC store in person. Do you have any idea what their filtration system consists of? - They get amazing health and colour in their SPS its shocking!

 

[trueblackpercula]

A BIG +1 to this.

I run a BB system. My tank is now well over a year old. But for something like 7-8 months I fought a major PO4 battle even though I had no sand in the tank. Yeah, it took that long to kick it down to below 0.03ppm. Lots of GFO use...and money.

So there is no guarantee...In the end I took out a few rocks that used to shed a CRAPLOAD of detritus...that helped a lot and then continued use of GFO brought it down to manageable levels. I also used Lanthanum Chloride with 10 Micron socks for a while.

Now I manage PO4 levels below 0.03ppm WITHOUT the use of any GFO.

BB systems are very easy IMO for nutrient management. However, if the source of PO4 is your rocks, then going BB isnt going to really help.

Aesthetically, BB systems are butt ugly, however, get the nutrients well controlled and your SPS can look awesome.

Here is the most famous BB system I know, and the reason I went BB:
<iframe width="960" height="540" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/gCMwseoP5gY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Everytime I see your tank It amazes me. Truely an insperation and please share with the OP what your maintenance schedule is like.
Amazing tank
Michael

 

[sahin]

Everytime I see your tank It amazes me. Truely an insperation and please share with the OP what your maintenance schedule is like.
Amazing tank
Michael

Woah!!! Thats not my tank!!! :crazy1: I wish it was!!! :lol: That is the 300G WWC tank.

 

[sahin]

Everytime I see your tank It amazes me. Truely an insperation and please share with the OP what your maintenance schedule is like.
Amazing tank
Michael

And since you live in the USA, you should go visit WWC and see their tanks. Truly amazing tanks-a few UK reefkeepers have seen the WWC store, and were amazed by the tanks in that store.

The 300G has now been replaced by a 630G tank. They setup the new 630G tank as a bare-bottomed tank again. These guys sure like their starboard bottomed tanks...and the results are spectacular!

 

[250G]

I have never seen a natural looking BB tank. That's just me. I would never do it, I would find another way to deal with my water quality issues.