Thoughts on ich

[Joe Pusdesris]

Unrelated, but did you collect that hermit crab? I don't remember ever seeing one like that. Then again, I don't spend much time in the cleanup crew part of the store. It is even more impressive if a cold water collected hermit lived 12 years in a tropical environment.

 

[souperman]

Cryptocaryon irritans has been very well researched and understood via good solid scientific research. Kind of leaves me wondering why people keep going on with pet theories based on "feelings"

There is plenty if research that supports the fact that there are environmental triggers for crypt outbreaks. I don't think that can be dismissed as going off of "feelings" at all.

I think it is a mistake to write off any other method that does not line up with the three cures that are promoted here on RC (which I believe are far from infallible). If we can keep this thread from turning into an emotional debate or a dog pile there may be some valuable information presented.

If anyone can pull this thread off it's Paul B :lmao:

 

[KCombs]

Paul you may be on to something...
I came back into the hobby after a short hiatus and frankly I've been agast at these "just add water" dry rock tanks.... I can't help but think that having a "screen saver" on your monitor would acomplish nearly the same thing

I get it that these tanks reduce issues associated with pest algaes and bugs and such, but IMO they are more prone to issues like ich

just a gut feeling but I'm convinced the closer you approximate the biodiversity of the real thing, the less issues you have (within reason)

 

[Paul B]

Unrelated, but did you collect that hermit crab?

No, those Two hermit crabs inthat above picture are red leg crabs and they are tropical. My avitar is a local NY crab which I took at night in the Sound, as far as I know he is still there and that was many years ago.

I think it is a mistake to write off any other method that does not line up with the three cures that are promoted here on RC (which I believe are far from infallible).

Oh we certainly know how to cure it, Now we have to figure how to prevent it. We have quarantine as a known method and tharts about it.
But obviousely there is something else at work here.

If we can keep this thread from turning into an emotional debate or a dog pile there may be some valuable information presented.

If it does, just close it. It is what it is. As I said, my purpose is not to argue with anyone about anything, this is an exchange of information. :wavehand:

 

[srusso]

No, for an ich free tank you just have to treat every fish (copper, hypo, or transfer) and quarantine every invert long enough for the ich to die off (8ish weeks). That is not in dispute. That also doesn't mean fish can't become resistant because some clearly do. But if you don't want to gamble, there is a proven route to an ich free tank.

Yet... I don't have ick issues and have put fish in the tank with ick and it just goes away. For really bad cases I treat for 7-10 max, better explained as a hospital tank. First a fresh water dip with prazzipro, for 5 mins or so, then hypo for 7 days. Then into the tank.

I do have a fire shrimp, but I don't think it is the only reason the tank is "ick free" or at least is not a problem... But it is part of the defense.

I don't really know how people run such sterile tanks...

Nature has a solution to everyone of its problems. It's a matter of learning what that is... For ick the answer is clear...

Clean water
Well fed
Proper living space
Proper tank mates
And natural environment that "probably" has ick in it, as well as a natural predator....

Hospitalize bad cases, ie: after shipping or other environmental issues.
(7-10 days)

 

[Chris27]

Cryptocaryon irritans has been very well researched and understood via good solid scientific research. Kind of leaves me wondering why people keep going on with pet theories based on "feelings"

Finally!! Someone removed Ichthyophthirius multifiliis from a saltwater thread and inserted the proper term :thumbsup:

 

[Chris27]

Nature has a solution to everyone of its problems. It's a matter of learning what that is... For ick the answer is clear...

Clean water
Well fed
Proper living space
Proper tank mates
And natural environment that "probably" has ick in it, as well as a natural predator....

Hospitalize bad cases, ie: after shipping or other environmental issues.
(7-10 days)

Mother nature deals with it yes, but not in a small glass box. The confines of an aquarium make it almost certain that a free swimming parasite will find a host. The ocean is a different story.

Think about riding the subway or a plane, if someone has a cold and goes sneezing on everyone around them, there is a pretty good chance a good bunch of people will get sick. Put that same sneezing jerk in a field in Montana, they can sneeze until they are blue in the face and nobody else will get sick.

 

[discocarp]

You have ich at subclinical levels. That is not an ich-free tank. It can work, I have not denied that fish can become resistant to ich. That is clear to me. There are many tanks following your approach. Some keep the ich down to non-noticeable levels and others lose fish. It is a gamble.

However, that 7-10 day treatment with hypo advice is garbage. Sorry, but that is completely at odds with everything we KNOW about ich. It is a waste of time to treat that shortly.

 

[Paul B]

I don't really know how people run such sterile tanks...

I don't either and I think mostly new tanks are kind of sterile. I doubt you can keep a tank for ten or twenty years and still have it sterile, maybe you can, but I can't.

Finally!! Someone removed Ichthyophthirius multifiliis from a saltwater thread and inserted the proper term

Proper terms are relative, we used to call ich or any spotted disease Oodinium. It was first called "Coral Fish Disease" then "White Spot Disease" then it went to ich, then back to Oodinium and now I am not sure what it is called. Whatever we want to call paracitic diseases, we don't want them to infect our fish. I personally don't care if it is in my tank because my system is very natural and about as close as you can get to the sea as possable due to the water, rocks and food I add all the time. I realize the vast majority of tanks are in areas away from the sea and most people can't or won't do what I do. I am an "expert" on only my tank and have no idea if fish will become immune in a "sterile" tank but my feelings are that they will not. The sea is not sterile, not hardly. Every disease is in the sea and the fish evolved to combat them, if they did not, there would be no fish. Of course when we take that part of the sea and stick it in a little tank, things change. Paracites become confined, fish become weaker from lack of proper food and exercize, water conditions deteriorate. There are so many factors at work here and we don't realize the total extent of it.
For instance, why are there no copper band butterflies in the Caribbean?
Everything else seems to get there in the ballast of ships. New York is full of Japanese Shore Crabs and Lionfish.
Even on reefs in the South Pacific you find certain fish at one place and a few miles away, none. Why is that. Is there subtle differences in these areas?
Why do we find huge elkhorn corals surrounding one attoll and not on the next one? Why don't they grow in Florida? It's the same salinity and temperature and we have that ballast water thing again.
The sea is slightly different all over the place even though it's parameters may be similar. Our tanks prove this also, some of us can keep SPS while others can't with the same parameters. There have been years when my tank was overgrown with leather corals, now there are just a few small ones and SPS are growing like crazy. I have huge hammar corals that for years I could not keep at all, I didn't change anything, But now it looks like some of them are declining again. I think this is from chemical warfare but I can't be sure, there is no test we know of. These things don't bother me because I know it is a natural occurance especially in a tank.
We as hobbiests go nuts over this stuff, especially when a coral declines, we look for disease, something we can remove or add to the water, different lights or temperature, clean up crews etc. But 9 times out of ten, we can't fix the problem because it is not a problem but a natural defense that corals themselves produce. If you have a tank long enough you will see that.
If I look at pictures of my tank over the years I will see vastly different types of coral dominating the tank. It is either gorgonians, SPS, leathers, mushrooms or sponges. This is a natural occurance in any body of water "including" and especially an enclosed body of water.
Hair algae is the same thing. I have none now and my nitrates are about 40, yes 40. Sometimes when my nitrates are 5, I am over run with the stuff, why is that? I don't know and neither do the scientists. :headwally:
We have to understand that animals, corals, algae, coraline and cyano all exude chemicals into the water. They build up and mix with chemicals from other animals. I can sometimes smell the water in my tank and sometimes I can't. Corals spawn as does everything. They spawn with the addition of phermones from other corals. What happens to these phermones?
If I put a piece of food in my tank I will see every hermit crab and bristle worm head for that spot. That food is adding a scent to the water, where does it go? These are al things that happen to a tank that can't be tested for but have a huge impact on the health of our animals. It is not as cut and dry as many people think it is.
OK enough ranting. I am going to suck up some raw clams, it adds clam phermones to my brain so I can make this stuff up. :beer:

 

[Joe Pusdesris]

Paul, what have your experiences with flukes been?

 

[Paul B]

what have your experiences with flukes been?

I have been catching and eating flukes and flounders all my life......

Oh, you mean gill paracites on fish.
They cause the fish to scratch and are many times confused with ich. They don't usually get much worse like ich would and usually all of the fish do not get them at once. They sometimes leave on their own but in the past I have used a formulin dip for half an hour then I like to use quinicrine hydrocloride which I can't get any more.
It is for treating malaria in humans and not many people on Long Island NY get malaria so it is not easy to get.
I also like the quinicrine along with copper to cure ich (or oodinium what ever you want to call it now) That will clean a fish of paracites in about a day but a 10 day treatment is necessary to eliminate it permanently. It works much faster than copper alone.

 

[Mrs. Music]

Something to remember when discoursing marine life disease, the whats, whys, hows, etc. we are making judgements based on our observations of the animals. Careful observation, although the best tool we have, is not definative. One is making a best guess, not a definative diagnosis. Unless you are cracking out the microscope, taking tissue samples, and have a true working knowledge of these marine diseases, it is a best guess.
So back to the idea that our fish are immune to ich, or other said parasite. All we can veritably state is that we do not observe outward signs or symptoms of a parasite problem. That does not mean that the fish does not have a low level parasite presence their immune system is keeping in check.

Another thought. Many of the "best" hobbyist do not have a lot of experience with fish disease treatment. Why? Because of excellent aquarium care habits. And it was so long ago when they did struggle with fish disease/treatment, they don't remember the details. . And much of what we thought 20 years ago has been improved upon. New medication, new use for old medication, for example.
I have more thoughts to share, and will return to this thread later. For now, I got to get going. Thanks Paul. Always a pleasure.

 

[Paul B]

That does not mean that the fish does not have a low level parasite presence their immune system is keeping in check

This is certainly true, my reef is probably an ich vacationland, but as long as they don't bother me or my fish, they can stay. I am hoping that they are just helping to improve the immunity but as you correctly said, it is all guesswork.

Unless you are cracking out the microscope, taking tissue samples,

I actually do this.

Many of the "best" hobbyist do not have a lot of experience with fish disease treatment. Why? Because of excellent aquarium care habits. And it was so long ago when they did struggle with fish disease/treatment, they don't remember the details.

This is also true, I spent countless hours adding copper, testing, adding more copper etc. And before they invented liquid copper I had to add copper pennies or copper cleaning pads. It was 20 pennies to the gallon. It worked but you had to know when to remove them as there were also no test kits. When the fish were laying on their side, that was enough copper and you had to remove some pennies and change some water.
I did not get my knowledge of ich from the internet, I got it from trial and error, mostly error.
I remember it well and have many years of experience treating paracites in my tanks and in a couple of LFSs I helped start. One of which is one of the largest and oldest in NY.
I once started an entire store with NSW. I had a boat that I could trailer and I filled garbage cans with NSW using my boat, then towed the boat to the store and pumped it in. :lol2:

 

[Paul B]

Think about riding the subway or a plane, if someone has a cold and goes sneezing on everyone around them, there is a pretty good chance a good bunch of people will get sick. Put that same sneezing jerk in a field in Montana, they can sneeze until they are blue in the face and nobody else will get sick.

This is true and goes along with part of my theory. I rode the New York City subway every day, twice a day for almost forty years along with about 5 million other people. To get to the subway I took the Long Island Railroad along with 2 million people. I rarely ever get sick and to my knowledge never got a cold or the flu, or hardly ever and that is with touching all of those handholds and railings on the subway. (During rush hour you are so close to people that you feel you have to marry some of them) But I was exposed all my life so I most likely built up some sort of immunity. I bet the people from Montana that visited New York caught all sorts of diseases because they are not exposed to it.
So you can live with diseases and be somewhat immune. That is a proven fact.
I am sure we can live with ich and not have our tank infected, but I want to know why. Is it really immunity? or is something else happening?
That is what this thread is about. Yes I know many of the people who feel quaranting is the only way to go will not post here because they feel our tanks will some day crash from paracites, and maybe they will. I have seen Mr Tuskfish'es tanks and they are beautiful and some of the largest tanks I have ever seen in a home. He quarantines and that is great. We know that works. But I don't so we also know that works.
But why?

 

[Tin_Whistler]

I do have a fire shrimp, but I don't think it is the only reason the tank is "ick free" or at least is not a problem... But it is part of the defense.

Ich are too small for a cleaner shrimp to do any good. They may pick off the exploded dying skin spots they leave when they burst off the fish, but they can't get the parasite themselves.

 

[srusso]

Ich are too small for a cleaner shrimp to do any good. They may pick off the exploded dying skin spots they leave when they burst off the fish, but they can't get the parasite themselves.

Do you have any evidence that supports that?

 

[Mrs. Music]

With my career I have a strong immune system, but that is not the whole picture. Other personal habits play into our health, Not just exposure, and genetics. Diet, exercise, good stress management, proper handwashing, and other personal habits, such as touching your eyes, nose, or mouth, effect health. Every time I have started a new job I go thru a brief period of frequent illnesses, such as colds, and stomach ailments. I chalk it up to new germ exposure and the stress from change. And the fact that when I am stressed I tend to rub my eyes, when I usually do not, and that little thing makes me more vulnerable to catching stuff, too. I think the same can be presumed regarding marine fish. Not the eye rubbing part of course.
Paul, your experiences in retail are not typical of the average hobbyist. Your extensive involvement in the retail aspect of the hobby expands your experience expotentially, potentially giving you a greater knowldge base to work with. And the average hobbyist does not use a microscope. . You have gone the extra mile. I think most can agree there are many methods for keeping a successful marine aquarium, and there are many ways one could define successful. We know that biofiltration was greatly enhanced by the use of live rock, and that pushed the hobby forward by leaps and bounds. It is now known that the diverse marine bacteria and microorganisms present on and within the LR are the driving force behind the microscopic processes that improved the keeping of marine livestock. So we infer that the greater the biodiversity of micro organsims in our aquariums will be beneficial.
Whoa. Lost my train of thought...
So...you believe that the consistent replenishment of biodiverse organisms very closely resembles a natural sea environment and that has been the basis of your success with your marine tank? Did I recap that well?

 

[3D-Reef]

Could it be the amount/numbers of small filter feeders in the tank, feeding on the ich, which helps keep the fish from being over-whelmed/infected?

 

[Paul B]

So...you believe that the consistent replenishment of biodiverse organisms very closely resembles a natural sea environment and that has been the basis of your success with your marine tank? Did I recap that well?

Mrs Music, I didn't say that was the basis, I think I said something like "IMO" diversity helps. This is not a scientific study and I am doing a lot of guessing from my experience. For example, If I personally can keep a tank for so many years without quarantining and ich is never a problem I have to conclude that something is responsible.
It may be the bacterial biodiversity, the live food such as worms that I feed every day
(which is my guess) or the water I occasionally add from the sea. Possably a combination of all these things. I am not the best aquarist the world has ever seen and there are plenty of much nicer and probably healthier tanks than mine but it does alright considering it's age.
I have always used a microscope and I aquired an antique one a few years ago that I love. If a fish dies and I am not sure of the cause I usually do an autopsy. I have some charts as to what healthy fish organs are supposed to look like. How else could you determine why the animal died? and I want to learn for the next time. We can't all learn from conjecture, opinion, hearsay and rumors. I am a doer, not a follower and I like to learn first hand which is the main reason I started SCUBA diving many years ago before it was fashionable.

Could it be the amount/numbers of small filter feeders in the tank, feeding on the ich, which helps keep the fish from being over-whelmed/infected?

It could be, or the ozone I use. My tank is a plethora of filter feeders with thousands of tiny fan worms. I would assume they could eat paracites but I have no way of knowing. My microscope will
not tell me that.
I do however always study the gills of a dead fish under the microscope to check for paracites and I never find any. I recently lost a breeding pair of watchman gobies that I had for about 12 years and their gills were like a new born, not one paracite which surprised me for being in a tank such as mine.
The last copperband that died on me soon after I bought it had internal bleeding which I have found a few times on those thin fish. I think it comes from collection as a skinny fish is suseptable to crushing and they seem delicate.
If a person dies we do an autopsy. We don't just say, Peter died, we don't know why but now we will just flush him. :eek2:

My theory on ich I have posted many times is all about food. I feel that a fishes immune system is a wonderful thing, much better than ours because a fish is exposed to everything in the sea. The gills of a fish are such that the water is actually an extension of the fishes circulatory system.
Their immune system has to be in perfect condition all the time and it usually is "in" the sea. In the sea they eat what they are supposed to eat to keep their immune system working correctly and there is very little tolerance to deviate from their diet. We as warm blooded humans can eat potato chips and beer for most of our lives and still have a functioning immune system, a fish can not. We can also live on that diet and re produce, a fish also can not. If a fish is not in perfect condition, it will not spawn. For a fish to spawn it has to manufacture eggs that are mostly oil and they could be a quarter of the fishes weight. That is a huge burden for a fish, and it's immune system must be perfect which is why most fish don't re produce in captivity and why many of them die from ich.
If they are not eating what they were made to eat, not flakes and pellets, their immune system is the first to be compromised and they won't spawn or produce eggs or sperm.
Most fish need oil in their diet and it is vastly missing in almost all commercially available food because it goes bad in the presence of oxygen which is the reason my fish get live worms every day, they are spawning, living almost 20 years and not contracting ich.
This of course is all my theory in my head and I am not the God of fish so I could be way off but it is what it is and it made my tank the oldest one on here so I must be doing at least one thing right.
At least I hope so or else I am the luckiest man alive. Well the luckiest fish Geek here anyway. :wavehand:

 

[JTL]

There was a theory a while back that ick could only reproduce a finite number of times. If you did not add a new strain for some period of time it died off naturally.