Top down shots

[topjimmy]

Man I wish I could be successful with corals. Every time I try I lose. Even easier stuff like digitata and birdnest. They grow great for a while, then rtn. I swear that the anemones in the tank do something to kill them.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

 

[sensei]

If the frags aren't pale or bleached I just place it where I have room. The frag tank is shallow, so there isn't much to having levels.

I basically just consider the tank to have two levels.......upper and lower.

Don't over analyze it.........put the corals in and observe growth, color, ect. over time.

For example, I had a Fox flame frag that came from a similar t5 setup. Over the next month it grew but the skin was bleaching so I put in on the floor of the tank. When it goes in the display I'll mount it low.

Ed,
It is all making sense now.
I had a frag that was growing in frag tank. I thought that when an acro is growing everything was fine, but over time it was becoming more and more pale but kept growing. two months after it died, I thought it was something with the chemistry of the water but I did my tests and water was fine . I never knew what happened until now!!!
I now realize it was growing but bleaching at the same time.

I have 2 frags that became pale in frag tank I just moved them to lower light and will see what happens.

2.- do you have a photo of a browned out acro?
when they brown it is because they need more light correct?
is it just the color brown or they also look somewhat dry?

thanks a lot for teaching us.

 

[Wiskey]

Here's a few updates--

Vivids floor colony........I'm not going to let it get much bigger as it's right next to the front glass.

[/url]vivid floor R 061717 by Big E 52, on Flickr[/IMG]

Blueberry Cheesecake exploding with lots of new growth

[/url]blueberry cheescake R 061717 by Big E 52, on Flickr[/IMG]

Man I love that floor colony! It's like an SPS splatted against a wall and started growing out from there!

Whiskey

 

[teebone110]

Hey Ed, Hope things are well

I like your advice, can you clarify what you mean by 3-4 range?

 

[Big E]

Man I wish I could be successful with corals. Every time I try I lose. Even easier stuff like digitata and birdnest. They grow great for a while, then rtn. I swear that the anemones in the tank do something to kill them.

Sorry to hear this...........if you want, you can contact me per pm. I'd be happy to help.

Man I love that floor colony! It's like an SPS splatted against a wall and started growing out from there!

Whiskey

Thanks, I went to frag a few of those branches and the whole encrusted plate moved. That was a suprise and good news..........now I can just slide it over instead of hacking it up. It's a good 6x8" in diameter.

Hey Ed, Hope things are well

I like your advice, can you clarify what you mean by 3-4 range?

Hi Tyler,

My tank is shallow so I divide it into two sections. A 24-30" deep tank I would probably divide it into 3 sections...........upper, middle and lower.

 

[Big E]

Ed,
It is all making sense now.
I had a frag that was growing in frag tank. I thought that when an acro is growing everything was fine, but over time it was becoming more and more pale but kept growing. two months after it died, I thought it was something with the chemistry of the water but I did my tests and water was fine . I never knew what happened until now!!!
I now realize it was growing but bleaching at the same time.

I have 2 frags that became pale in frag tank I just moved them to lower light and will see what happens.

2.- do you have a photo of a browned out acro?
when they brown it is because they need more light correct?
is it just the color brown or they also look somewhat dry?

thanks a lot for teaching us.

Pale tan colored frags can be from low nutrients, high light, incorrect spectrum or combinations of these conditions. Over time you'll lose polyp extension and growth. This can take a long time 6 months or more before the acro just dies.

When corals brown out they are more of a chocolate colored brown. Sometimes they will be green and brown or some green will mix in with the natural colors the acro should normally be.

These conditions can happen from poor intensity or incorrect spectrum. Stress can also cause this, but it's usually short term and corrects itself in in 3-4 weeks.

If most of the other frags are doing good you can usally bet it's a placement or flow issue. Pests are also something to look for on corals that are stalling, pale or brown.

 

[Wally.B]

Ed,

Reefmutt directed me to this thread and it's the best Broad Resource I've ever read anywhere. Many thanks for your efforts to share your experience and incredible knowledge/expertise with everyone.

The various SPS color/growth successes you've achieved over the timeline of the thread are spectacular. I bow to you.

I read the entire thread and did a scrapbook of all the good points which I need to review and digest before I ask any further questions specific to my "SPS Only" 65 Gal DT setup/55 Gal Sump.

To be clear I've have achieved stability, and coral success with a Very Nice Mature 90Gal DT (ZERO SPS, with Mixed Soft, LPS, Zoa, Acan, etc), after 20 years of various up and downs to figure things out.

But I've been a total failure (x2+) with "SPS only" Frag startup attempts. Many reasons (mistakes, additives, overfeeding, accidents, etc) that Reefmut knows all about since he's been with me since the start of the SPS journey a couple years ago. That was great practice, since failing with Frags is one thing, but failing with Mature Colonies is way worse and much more painful, so I am grateful for the lessons, but wish no more.

This 3rd attempt I've worked many months to give my NEW improved setup everything possible (Over scaled, but Adjustable/Automated) for Lighting, Circulation, Nutrient Export, and Water Parameter Stability.
I've detailed everything in a new "3rd attempt Tank Thread".

At this point I have only one question, since it caught my attention in one of your posts, and concerns me that I may have made a Design Error (Fixable).

Your point was "you have to look at how your getting nutrients to the skimmer, how the skimmer performs". This point was repeated by you in different points, but all related to exporting the right stuff.

I designed/built the a Custom Sump to have a "Built in Algae Scrubber" (since one past failure was a Cyano, then Algae Bloom Extreme [New Rocks,Overfeeding Corals & Too much Red Lighting] ). This time the Scrubber is extra insurance/protection, even though I won't repeat those two mistakes.

The DT Drains into the first section of Sump which all water passes thru an Modified Upflow Algae Scrubber, then to the compartment where The Skimmer does it work. Finally into the last section when return pump sends water back to Display Tank. There is a Side section in the sump that was going to be a 8 Gallon Refuge, but Algae Scrubber worked so well, the Refuge Chamber is used for Fully Automated Water changes, and runs as no light trickle filter box with Crushed Coral Fragments (Past Failed Dried Frags) for Biological growth.

The Algae scrubber has produced a lot of Algae (100g) which I removed every other week many months.

I gained confidence to add SPS frags when PO4 was around 0.18ppm and NO3 around 5ppm. (with Medium Fish Load / Medium all day feeding).

To tweak PO4 a bit lower, I restarted my GFO reactor, and after a week PO4 dropped to 0.06ppm, NO3 just under 5ppm.

At that point the Algae Scrubber Screeched to a halt/trickle. My film algae on glass slowed down. My assumption is Algae ran out of fuel with the additional drop on P04, NO3 (Close to zero). I believe this is a good thing.

The Skimmer (Classic EuroReef) continues to do it work filling up with dark thick Skimmate, needing cleaning about once a week.

So based on your various points throughout this thread how corals obtain Color/Growth thru cycled nutrition and the bold comment above, should the Skimmer be first, and Algae scrubber 2nd?

Not sure if you might possibly say the Algae Scrubber is not a good idea since removing desirable substances for Corals (but I'm sold so far based on results I just got with NO3/PO4).

The tank contains a Center Island of 3 year old Aged Live Rock (Algae Free), loosely stacked for good flow thru, and the 20 or so frags are about 2 months new, all place roughly at center level for future adjustments.
There is some residual sand bed that has blown to one side due to the amount of Laminar flow/circulation, and I'm slowly planning to remove it all since it's the only place I see brown Algae forming lightly on the surface.

Thanks for any insight or any advice/comments you may have.

 

[sensei]

Pale tan colored frags can be from low nutrients, high light, incorrect spectrum or combinations of these conditions. Over time you'll lose polyp extension and growth. This can take a long time 6 months or more before the acro just dies.

When corals brown out they are more of a chocolate colored brown. Sometimes they will be green and brown or some green will mix in with the natural colors the acro should normally be.

These conditions can happen from poor intensity or incorrect spectrum. Stress can also cause this, but it's usually short term and corrects itself in in 3-4 weeks.

If most of the other frags are doing good you can usally bet it's a placement or flow issue. Pests are also something to look for on corals that are stalling, pale or brown.

Ed,
I have an acro that looks pale pink somewhat pale brown, it is a soft skin acro.
it is in an area located 12" from bottom with an aproximate par of 320
it was nice red color when I got it. It has been in dt over 4 months, after 2 months in frag tank and it is growing but with the same pale colors.

I am a little confused because corals that get pale also look somewhat brown. When acros brown out they need more light but in this case I am not sure if the brown color that it is showing is because it is pale and I am not sure if I should higher it because it looks somewhat brown or lower it because it is looks pale and it is a soft skin acro??
can you explain a little more?
Thanks again

 

[JonezNReef]

Ed-
Just made it through your thread and I would like to thank you for documenting such valuable information over your years. Most of the pictures from past years aren't showing up but the ones that are are amazing. I have been a fan of the "kiss" approach and I am glad you have had such success for so long by simply keeping it simple.

 

[Big E]

Ed,
I have an acro that looks pale pink somewhat pale brown, it is a soft skin acro.
it is in an area located 12" from bottom with an aproximate par of 320
it was nice red color when I got it. It has been in dt over 4 months, after 2 months in frag tank and it is growing but with the same pale colors.

I am a little confused because corals that get pale also look somewhat brown. When acros brown out they need more light but in this case I am not sure if the brown color that it is showing is because it is pale and I am not sure if I should higher it because it looks somewhat brown or lower it because it is looks pale and it is a soft skin acro??
can you explain a little more?
Thanks again

In the case of the coral you mentioned above I would lower......most smooth skin types, Ice fire, hawkins, specosia, turaki, red dragon, ect. don't need a high par level for good coloration.

Too much light the coral is tan in color..........not enough it's more of a chocolate brown. Usually the tan acro when it grows will have pale/pastel colors........these can also struggle with growth.

Corals that are brown but good polyp extension and growth just need higher par levels.

What I'm stating above is a general explanation.

If you know the true coloration of the coral (aquacultured and maintaned in reef tanks) it's easier to decide what needs to be done with placement.

Ed-
Just made it through your thread and I would like to thank you for documenting such valuable information over your years. Most of the pictures from past years aren't showing up but the ones that are are amazing. I have been a fan of the "kiss" approach and I am glad you have had such success for so long by simply keeping it simple.

Thanks, unfortunately the service that was storing my photos has gone to pay only, so they wiped out all my photos.

I'm still trying to figure out how best to restore or re-post all the lost photos.
I have a few thoughts/ideas.......eventually I'll get a lot of the pictures back up on this thread or a new one.

 

[Big E]

Hi Wally.B, thanks for those kind words.

The Algae scrubber has produced a lot of Algae (100g) which I removed every other week many months.

I gained confidence to add SPS frags when PO4 was around 0.18ppm and NO3 around 5ppm. (with Medium Fish Load / Medium all day feeding).

To tweak PO4 a bit lower, I restarted my GFO reactor, and after a week PO4 dropped to 0.06ppm, NO3 just under 5ppm.

At that point the Algae Scrubber Screeched to a halt/trickle. My film algae on glass slowed down. My assumption is Algae ran out of fuel with the additional drop on P04, NO3 (Close to zero). I believe this is a good thing.

The Skimmer (Classic EuroReef) continues to do it work filling up with dark thick Skimmate, needing cleaning about once a week.

So based on your various points throughout this thread how corals obtain Color/Growth thru cycled nutrition and the bold comment above, should the Skimmer be first, and Algae scrubber 2nd?

Not sure if you might possibly say the Algae Scrubber is not a good idea since removing desirable substances for Corals (but I'm sold so far based on results I just got with NO3/PO4).

Yes, you sucked out the PO4 and changed the ratio the algae scrubber thrives at. The algae may recover/adjust over time.

It's very possible with GFO and the skimmer only you can keep your same ratios you have now, which to me, are fine for Sps.

The algae scrubber will take out a high amount of trace elements and if very efficient drive nitrates to 0 and then you're stuck with having to dose nitrate to keep the algae thriving. This can also necessitate the need to dose trace elements for the corals.

The basic thought with the skimmer is to position it so it's getting as much nutrient laden bacteria to the reaction chamber as it passes through the sump. Having it first will help with that especially if your chambers are divided well. It could also have the most negative effect on a scrubber's growth as the nitrates will be less available.

For sps the idea is to have a high energy system"¦"¦"¦.plenty of nutrients for the corals and very little left for pest algae to thrive. The basic levels I mentioned can all work and why it's a fairly wide range.

Hope this helps

 

[Wally.B]

Thanks Ed, on the point of "Trace Elements being consumed by Scrubber".
At this point, I'm not so concerned about NO3 going to zero (but will watch closely). It's still hovering up and down around 5ppm depending on feeding, mood, etc.

The chambers are divided well, and although the Algae Scrubber is first, it only processes about 1/2 the water, since the rest sneaks by.
If you are interested, the Sump, with Built in Scrubber is shown here in YouTube Video during design and testing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI_HJ9nDyc8&feature=youtu.be

And one thing I designed that you mentioned in one of your points in this thread..., is my sock doesn't filter/capture/plug in the First Stage. Sock is a 1/2" below surface of water, so water passed thru it by gravity, but copepods, and bacteria get a chance to swirl around the sock and get out. Large particle stay somewhat, and the U baffle captures most of the larger heavier particulate.

Since my Tank is all Frags, and ALK/CALC consumption currently low, I am Dosing AquaForest Component 1,2,3, (just 12 ml each/DAY, which is keeping ALK/CALC stable). So this system will Also help with Micro/Macro Element replenishing for the short term.
Plus as mentioned, I'm doing 2.5% Water Changes, Automatically twice a week. That helps too.
It may be a waste of good water (but cheaper than the $ I wasted on Addtives), that's why I'm starting up a Isolated Frag Tank, and it will re-use that Water to run. (Will do the odd good water change in Frag tank too).

As the Frags progress, I figure AF1,2,3 won't be enough, so I'll have to convert to AF Strong or back to B-Ionic + ? .
But first I have to cross the "Bridge of SPS survival", and for the first time ever, my confidence is a TINY BIT on the Plus side, but not much.

 

[Wally.B]

Ed-
Just made it through your thread and I would like to thank you for documenting such valuable information over your years. Most of the pictures from past years aren't showing up but the ones that are are amazing. I have been a fan of the "kiss" approach and I am glad you have had such success for so long by simply keeping it simple.

I just noticed this on many of my threads.
Many older pictures posted on PhotoBucket are losing the links to Photos and are replaced by the following ICON. (Too bad, the threads are 1/2 stories, if pictures used).

This message is at bottom.
--------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------

I went there, and they want you to Upgrade (Looks like $$.....Exactly $399 a year)..Yikes.
This is terrible since this mean much of Reef Central is being stripped bare for those who used PhotoBucket.

Ed, I'd love to see the many Coral Posts of past you have in your thread, so hoping you can repost some of them.
Your photo's and timeline updates speak wonders in words, but photo's missing. Those that are there a stunning. (but so few)

I personally have converted over to Flickr, since PhotoBucket was getting terribly slow and unreliable.
Flickr is much more responsive and has a nice feature where you can upload a Larger Image 2048x1024, but get links to a large choice of smaller images (ie 640x480 etc) for adding to Post, emails, etc.
FLICKR is free, but these days and times, who knows how long.

 

[sensei]

In the case of the coral you mentioned above I would lower......most smooth skin types, Ice fire, hawkins, specosia, turaki, red dragon, ect. don't need a high par level for good coloration.

Too much light the coral is tan in color..........not enough it's more of a chocolate brown. Usually the tan acro when it grows will have pale/pastel colors........these can also struggle with growth.

Corals that are brown but good polyp extension and growth just need higher par levels.

What I'm stating above is a general explanation.

If you know the true coloration of the coral (aquacultured and maintaned in reef tanks) it's easier to decide what needs to be done with placement.
.

Ed,

When you say that soft skin do not need much par, but to have an idea how much par would be their sweet spot? I know we are not to base decisions based in par measurements but just to have an idea of their range.

I just realized that there is some light blockage from the aquascaping I have in my tank. I have an island of rocks in one side and that blocks light in an area of the tank.
Is it posible that you post some pictures of your whole dt, so we can se your aquascaping?
is you aquascaping low in all areas. how have you arranged it to avoid light blocking?

Thanks a lot

 

[Big E]

Wally.B,

I went there, and they want you to Upgrade (Looks like $$.....Exactly $399 a year)..Yikes.
This is terrible since this mean much of Reef Central is being stripped bare for those who used PhotoBucket.

Ed, I'd love to see the many Coral Posts of past you have in your thread, so hoping you can repost some of them.
Your photo's and timeline updates speak wonders in words, but photo's missing. Those that are there a stunning. (but so few)

I personally have converted over to Flickr, since PhotoBucket was getting terribly slow and unreliable.
Flickr is much more responsive and has a nice feature where you can upload a Larger Image 2048x1024, but get links to a large choice of smaller images (ie 640x480 etc) for adding to Post, emails, etc.
FLICKR is free, but these days and times, who knows how long.

Yes, very frustrating without notice they killed my thread. I have recently switched to flicker as well due to slowness from PB........ not sure I'll stay with them, but it does work well and is fast.

 

[markalot]

IMGUR



Same thing could happen, they may decide to charge, but it works for now. Photobucket is making the old ImageShack move to pay only look like a good deal at $40 a year. I remember complaining about that ... but I do pay to keep many of my old images alive.

 

[Coralhoarder12]

What a great thread

 

[Aslam Abraham]

Hi Ed, I have a question for you.
A year ago you suggested 3 blue+ and 3 coral+ to use in my Ati 6 x 24watt fixture.
Growth and colour has been steady as I started with frags.
Now, a year later, its time to change bulbs again.
I was thinking 2 blue+ 2 coral + and 2 actinic.
I know this combination will have a 20k look.
I would like your opinion on growth, colour and par values using this combo.
Thanks

 

[Aslam Abraham]

Hi Ed, I have a question for you.
A year ago you suggested 3 blue+ and 3 coral+ to use in my Ati 6 x 24watt fixture.
Growth and colour has been steady as I started with frags.
Now, a year later, its time to change bulbs again.
I was thinking 2 blue+ 2 coral + and 2 actinic.
I know this combination will have a 20k look.
I would like your opinion on growth, colour and par values using this combo.
Thanks

 

[Big E]

Hi Ed, I have a question for you.
A year ago you suggested 3 blue+ and 3 coral+ to use in my Ati 6 x 24watt fixture.
Growth and colour has been steady as I started with frags.
Now, a year later, its time to change bulbs again.
I was thinking 2 blue+ 2 coral + and 2 actinic.
I know this combination will have a 20k look.
I would like your opinion on growth, colour and par values using this combo.
Thanks

If you want to go with that combo you may want to use the Geismann Super Actinic as it has higher par values than the ATI actinic.

I'm not sure how much that will change the actual coral colors directly under the actinic bulbs. It will definately change the overall ambient view to your eyes. Remember each bulb only has about a 4" width of actual usable spectrum for the corals.

You could also try 4 blue+ and two coral+. That would add more 400-450nm.
versus just having a large peak of 420nm with actinic. It will make yellow, orange and green pop more. You'll lose some pink, purple and blue pop visually.

For example it will be harder to see the purple polyps of a upscales microclados and blue tips of corals won't look as intense.

These are subtle characteristics that you'll notice when you swap out the bulbs.
Front to back--
Blue+
Coral+
Blue+
Blue+
Coral+
Blue+

I ran this for 6 months on my frag tank as I ran short on coral+ bulbs and decided to experiment.