Tropic Marine BIO-ACTIF Salt?

I found that my ORP dropped drastically (fron 369 to 250) from an 18% W.C. using the Bio Actif. A week later (today) I did another 10% and the ORP dropped from 260 to 230.
Randy mentioned that this may be due to some chemistry I am sure not to understand, but I am wondering if others are experiencing similar results.
Also, should I be concerned that It goes so low and seems to stay there?

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Hmmm, looking at this graph, I notice that the ORP although lower does not seem to fluctuate with the PH swings as much as it used to.

my orp did the exact same thing... all i can say is that im glad this whole experience is behind me. I do believe that i contributed greatly to the problems i had. I will not use this salt again though. If you want to dose carbon then dose it. Dont use a product that you dont really know what/how much is in it. I use ESV salt system now. I couldnt be happier.
 
Las

How did your LFS test your po4?? Just questioning the legitimacy of the original test. If the LFS test was incorrect, then adding 3X the GFO and 3X the GAC may have stripped vital nutrients necessary for the corals health (resulting in common stress reactions like bleaching and tissue recession). Sometimes systems with delicate SPS, the GFO can be too agressive and strip nutrients too much resulting in stress and illness. I've not heard that occur as commonly to LPS (I believe they are more adaptable to changing nutrient levels), but as I said before, often LPS come from waters which are more nutrient rich possibly making them sensitive to very quick drops in nutrient levels.

In regards to the salt mix, I believe your observation of seeing loss of coral coloration and seemingly stressed reactions says enough to indicate your tank isn't reacting well to the mix. It is possible that the organics in the mix are facilitating biological processes to lower total DOC's and POM in the water thus making your water far more clear and making the light far more intense than your corals had been used to. Certainly a possibility and if that truly is the problem then your corals will react positively by raising the light and they will likely eventually adapt to the change in light and resume a more natural coloration. I would assume that after several months the corals would have adapted by now (if increased light penetration is the problem).

Personally, I think it sounds like your tank is reacting to a very quick drop in nutrients. The bioactif salt could have been very slowly removing necessary nutrients (dissolved organics), thus the slow change to pale coloration and signs of stress. Adding the large amount of GFO and GAC simply added to the problem already at hand. Just my opinion.

Pale coloration is commonly a sign of corals being in too intense of light (or not properly photoadapted) "or" being in conditions which are very nutrient poor (too limited in nutrients for the corals proper health and coloration).

If I were in your situation I wouldn't be too quick to change your salt mix to something completely different. To find the most appropriate salt mix I try to choose a mix that already matches the tanks water parameters your maintaining. For example: If your alk has been steady at 8.0 dkh then I wouldn't suddenly switch to Reef Crystals becuase the alk commonly tests out at 13+ dkh. You can find a whole list of salt mixes and their common ca, mag, and alk levels in the first page of this thread.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1287118

By choosing a salt mix that already matches your waters target parameters you will limit any stress from elemental fluctutations from your water changes (I personally believe alk is BY FAR more important to match than ca or mag). If you agree with my theory that your corals are reacting to low nutrient conditions, then continuing to use bioactif salt would be contraindicated as it seems to promote bacterial prolifertation which assists in lowering DOC's (again, that's just a theory based on a common observation from people using the salt).

I would go back to using your normal amount of carbon which will absorb any toxins released by any stressed or dying corals. I'd remove the GFO entirely and continue to monitor po4 levels. If po4 increases then add GFO slowly (starting with maybe half the recommended dose). I wouldn't add any large amounts of AA's. Small doses may be OK but don't dose too much. Nothing is good in high amounts in a reef tank. A gentle and delicate equilibrium of various processes (filtration, supplemention, light pattern and intensity, etc...) is what makes most tanks successful and the concentrated supplements available to us can turn equilibrium upside down and cause a domino effect of problems. Small amounts of AA's may help replenish "some" vital nutrients, however the corals need much more than AA's to maintain normal health. All of the vital nutrients and most trace elements can be restored by feeding more high quality fish food to your fish or providing a variety of zooplankton for the corals.

I agree entirely that all changes should be done very slowly - including changing feeding routines. Eric Borneman has a great series of articles that provide a good explanation of how a tank has a mini cycle with each chage we make. Any little change we make requires the tank and it's inhabitants to change and adapt in one way or another (sometimes a change we are aiming for and sometimes not).

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-07/eb/index.php

Jeremy

Jeremy,

thanks alot for your help. I definitely learned alot from the whole thing.
 
Jeremy,

thanks alot for your help. I definitely learned alot from the whole thing.

You're very welcome!!

FWIW, I used the bioactif salt for two months and it caused all kinds of chaos in my tank. I'll never use it again. In fact the $100 bucket of salt I had left I gave away for someone else to try. Organics in a salt mix - not a good choice IMO.

Jeremy
 
You're very welcome!!

FWIW, I used the bioactif salt for two months and it caused all kinds of chaos in my tank. I'll never use it again. In fact the $100 bucket of salt I had left I gave away for someone else to try. Organics in a salt mix - not a good choice IMO.

Jeremy


I agree. Went through one bucket and I was through with it. I am sticking with what I know.
 
I have had my tank now for over 6yrs - using several different salt mixes for the first one or two - settled on IO for at least 4 yrs - after seeing this "new" salt hit the market and watching first hand the improvements on a friends 300 sps dominant tank - I gave it a whirl... I was starting to battle some cyano, and little hair algae breakout, and let him talk me into a massive change - 120 gallons at once! (I have a 180 bow, stacked with rock!) this took the water down to about 5 inches in the tank! I could not believe what I was doing, but was already committed with it - so on it went. I got all the water from a local grocery store - RO steam deionized, mixed to 1.025 (quickly I might add, it was summer here in swFL). and did the deed - To my amazement, the corals had full polyp extension within minutes, the fish were active and stress free - Since then, I have done the usual changes - (30 gal) about every 4 weeks. I cannot believe the changes in the tank - corals are amazingly brilliant, fish are healthier looking - and growth is off the charts! The skimmer is more consistently skimming nasty out on a regular basis, and the refuge is growing like mad too. To sum up; I did the unthinkable water change with this salt, and the results have been absolutely outstanding... Never going back to another brand... FWIW, I too get the cloudy haze for about an hour after the water change too - but with no ill effects at all, when it clears - it is crystal clear!
 
You're very welcome!!

FWIW, I used the bioactif salt for two months and it caused all kinds of chaos in my tank. I'll never use it again. In fact the $100 bucket of salt I had left I gave away for someone else to try. Organics in a salt mix - not a good choice IMO.

Jeremy

what kind of chaos did it cause in your tank. if it was not for the deadly cyanobacteria i would have given this salt a little longer.still not convinced it does anything to the tank other than help cyano grow. i will try it again maybe if i can get my cyano under control maybe this time using mb7 along with it.

vivek
 
You're very welcome!!

FWIW, I used the bioactif salt for two months and it caused all kinds of chaos in my tank. I'll never use it again. In fact the $100 bucket of salt I had left I gave away for someone else to try. Organics in a salt mix - not a good choice IMO.

Jeremy

I have an unopened 200 gallon bucket still that i will sell to someone for half price.
 
I have had my tank now for over 6yrs - using several different salt mixes for the first one or two - settled on IO for at least 4 yrs - after seeing this "new" salt hit the market and watching first hand the improvements on a friends 300 sps dominant tank - I gave it a whirl... I was starting to battle some cyano, and little hair algae breakout, and let him talk me into a massive change - 120 gallons at once! (I have a 180 bow, stacked with rock!) this took the water down to about 5 inches in the tank! I could not believe what I was doing, but was already committed with it - so on it went. I got all the water from a local grocery store - RO steam deionized, mixed to 1.025 (quickly I might add, it was summer here in swFL). and did the deed - To my amazement, the corals had full polyp extension within minutes, the fish were active and stress free - Since then, I have done the usual changes - (30 gal) about every 4 weeks. I cannot believe the changes in the tank - corals are amazingly brilliant, fish are healthier looking - and growth is off the charts! The skimmer is more consistently skimming nasty out on a regular basis, and the refuge is growing like mad too. To sum up; I did the unthinkable water change with this salt, and the results have been absolutely outstanding... Never going back to another brand... FWIW, I too get the cloudy haze for about an hour after the water change too - but with no ill effects at all, when it clears - it is crystal clear!

Im very happy for you my friend. Must feel good!
 
Hello,

sometimes interrelationships are not so difficult to understand. In more than 20 years of professional care for reef aquaria, most times cyanobacteria have spread when phosphate concentrations in the water have been reduced. The result was that phosphate concentrations in the substrates are high and phosphate concentration in the water are low. This is in my eyes the constellation that cyanobacteria like. I think, since cyanobacteria are photosynthetic and they are bacteria they have espacially good abilities to mobilize nutrients like phosphate and iron from substrates and precipitates. This is why they are better able than any other sort of algae or bacteria to grow under theses circumstances.
When cyanobacteria grow after using BIO-ACTIF salt in my eyes this just means the phosphate concentration in the water has been reduced by the use of this salt.

Another thing is that I run reef tanks with extremy low phosphate concentrations for more than 15 years, maybe nearly 20 years. I was always convinced that the phosphate concentrations should be as low as possible, even limiting for the coral growth. Just as long I have always noticed that SPS are doing extremly bad at KHs higher than 8 or maximum 9°. They seem to tolerate higher KH at higher phosphate concentrations as I know of some other tanks but as soon as KH is high and phosphate is low tissue necrosis starts, most frequently from the base of the Acropora corals. It doesn´t matter whether you lower phosphates at cotinuously high KH or you rise KH at continously low phosphates, as soon as you try to achieve high KH and low phosphates you will see tissue necrosis or tissue decay. In my eyes this is the most frequent cause of RTN, especially at the base of Acropora spp..

Natural seawater has a KH of just 6.5° KH at 35 PSU salinity ("normalized alkalinity"). It does not help for anything to run a KH higher than 8, especially not for coral growth. SPS will allways show signs of stress and reduced growth at low phosphates and high KH.

Only some SPS and many LPS show rapid growth at high KH and high phosphates but both is unnatural and I think (although I am not 100% sure) the skeletons produced in this way are unnaturally thin and fragile. I did never try to achieve these unnatural conditions to have more rapid growth.

Even easier is the case of the ORP. ORP electrodes have to be cleaned and cared for extraordinarily frequently and carefully. Otherwise the ORP electrode instead of showing the ORP of the water just shows the bacterial acitivity on its surface. Since it is exactly the intention of the BIO-ACTIF sea salt to add organic substances to stimulate bacterial activity I don´t wonder that the electrode shows a reduction of the ORP.
Even in the case the ORP electrode had been cleaned very carefully before measuring I wouldn´t wonder that it shows a reduced ORP since organic substances are reduced substances. If it wouldn´t show up a reduced ORP I would wonder whether the salt contains organic substances as it claims at all.

Hans-Werner
 
So what's the fix? I switched to BioActif and my corals have never looked better. Brighter colors and great growth/polyp extension. BUT.... I have thick dark red cyano all over my sand bed. I have removed it manually and it still comes back. Do I leave it alone and let the system work itself out? Do I add something like Brightwell Aquatics Microbacter 7?
-CJ
 
Cyanobacteria like iron. You may try to avoid trace elements and adsorbers rhich in iron, you may clean the sand bed frequently to remove precipitates and cyanos or you may change or cover the old sand bed with sand low in phosphates. "Live sand" usually is susceptible to cyanos so it would not be the best choice to change or cover your old sand bed.
 
I do vacuum the sand bed with each water change (every 2 wks). I suppose I could change out the sand bed... It seems to me that I should just do that every year or so for best results anyway...
 
Cyanobacteria like iron. You may try to avoid trace elements and adsorbers rhich in iron, you may clean the sand bed frequently to remove precipitates and cyanos or you may change or cover the old sand bed with sand low in phosphates. "Live sand" usually is susceptible to cyanos so it would not be the best choice to change or cover your old sand bed.

Hans

Thanx for a very insightful review on phosphates and alkalinity. I had a very bad breakout of cyanobacteria after using the salt. Corals were fine and the water was clearer. I am a very heavy feeder of my fish to help with my coral growth and have had bubble algae and aiptasia in my tank suggesting either the nutrient or phosphate In my tank are elevated (my po4 with Hanna always read 0.03 or less though I am not sure I believe it based on the bubble algae growth. My nitrates are always reading zero. So after very aggressive water changes and severly cutting back my feeding I have been able to eradicate cyanobacteria. I really want to use this salt.
Can you help me as to how to do it the next time to minimize the chance of Cyanobacteria bloom. These are some of the things I gathered from other peoples experianceof using carbon dosing and Cyanobacteria. As this all anecdotal I am not sure if one or all of these things will make any difference what so ever but I will give this salt one more shot before I decide that is not good for my tank. What would you suggest I should do ? Here are the things I am planning to do the next time round.....

1) dose a bacterial source for two weeks (microbacter7 from brightwellaquatics) :- rational being this will outcompete cyanobacteria when I reintroduce carbon

2) start using this salt in vey small quantities and slowly increase it.

3) feed the fish less than my heavy feeding routine

4) continue with aggressive (15% weekly water changes)

5) keep my alkalinity closer to 7 to 8 compared to 9 currently

Any thoughts and other ideas to avoid cyanobacteria ?
 
Vivek,

some fish species like Siganus vulpinus feed on bubble algae.
Amblygobius phalaena is said to remove or feed on cyanobacteria. I have no own experiences with A. phalaena. Since I only care for experimental setups in our company and not for a public aquarium any more I do not really care about cyanos. They are ugly but not detrimental. I remove them when doing water changes but if they come back ...
The best thing against cyanos and algae on rocks is good growth of corallinaceous algae. Otherwise only patience and frequent removal will help.

Sometimes aggressive water changes help against cyanobacteria, sometimes not, I am sorry, I can´t predict.

I recommend to keep the alkalinity around 7, 5.5 to 8 are acceptable for all corals. Corals do best if you try not to enforce a higher KH. With more relaxed supply of calcium and KH also the corals will be more "relaxed" and less stressed.

Hans-Werner
 
Vivek,

some fish species like Siganus vulpinus feed on bubble algae.
Amblygobius phalaena is said to remove or feed on cyanobacteria. I have no own experiences with A. phalaena. Since I only care for experimental setups in our company and not for a public aquarium any more I do not really care about cyanos. They are ugly but not detrimental. I remove them when doing water changes but if they come back ...
The best thing against cyanos and algae on rocks is good growth of corallinaceous algae. Otherwise only patience and frequent removal will help.

Sometimes aggressive water changes help against cyanobacteria, sometimes not, I am sorry, I can´t predict.

I recommend to keep the alkalinity around 7, 5.5 to 8 are acceptable for all corals. Corals do best if you try not to enforce a higher KH. With more relaxed supply of calcium and KH also the corals will be more "relaxed" and less stressed.

Hans-Werner

Thanx for your input

I will post my experience here after I give this another shot in about 4 wks from now.

Vivek
 
Adding CUC animals like blue leg hermits and astrea snails is always helpful in the battle against cyano. In the few times my tank has had too much of a carbon source, it fueled a cyano outbreak and the addition of some astrea snails took care of the problem quite quickly. Astrea snails and blue leg hermits do well at managing many types of unwanted bacterial growth in a display.

Adding CUC animals doesn't fix the ultimate problem (which is the excessive nutrients that are fueling the growth), but they are helpful in managing the unsightlyness until the growth can be limited by nutrient management.

Jeremy
 
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i started my system on this salt (first timer, total noob to saltwater). i had some horrible algae at the start, i assumed it was typical startup ugly tank syndrome. i kinda got discouraged with the super ugly tank, did 0 water changes for 3-4 month, but never had ANY nitrates or anything. even durring cycling and tossing frozen shrimp in there. i got tired of the horrible algae and asked the LFS what i could do. he said stuff about water changes, manual removal, feed less... blablabla, all stuff i didnt want to do. he also mentioned i need to skim more. so, i went from a super crappy 75 gal rated skimmer (on my 75) to a octopus 200 rated for a 200 gal tank. within 2 weeks, every bit of my algae is gone. ALL of it. its amazing. my 3 zoas are open, look great, and have been gaining color since i picked them up. fish seem healthy also.

soon, ill be out of my 200 gal mix and for whatever reason, the salt seems to be about $30 more than it was when i got it, so i will most likely switch. im anxious to see if the salt change will do good/bad since i started out with it. we will see
 
I have also been giving this salt a try and my results are very mixed after almost a month. I have experienced an outbreak of cyanobacteria, rendering my beautifully white, shallow sand bed a complete mess. I think I have noticed an increase in polyp extension and some improvement in color, but I’m not sure whether that is true or if I’m experiencing a bit of a ‘placebo” effect given that I’m looking at the tank more and trying to see the desired results.

In general, for many of our systems it seems that this salt is excessively counterproductive. So to summarize so far, there have been a variety of recommendations in this thread; lower your alkalinity, replace or cover your sand bed, purchase fish or other CUC animals to eat the unwanted by products, remove trace elements containing iron, increase flow, grow more coralline algae, etc. All of this coupled by increased maintenance and manual cleaning, etc, not to mention the premium cost – it just doesn’t make sense to me.

I have kept a notably clean tank for a very long time albeit with relatively pale coral colors, but now I am completely embarrassed to show my tank…… but, with all that being said, I’m going to try and give it some more time and try and make it work - stir the sand bed a bit, and try to counteract the cyano with MB7. Overall, at this point I’m not impressed and already bought a new bucket of my old brand should things not start to turn for the better after the next couple of water changes. I suppose like many others I was expecting this salt to be more of a one-stop-shop type of solution. Perhaps consolidating some of the various products we might use or dose, while improving the health of our reef nonetheless. Like others, I’ve found the exact opposite to be true.
 
I am starting up on this salt.
What surprised me that my Redox value is very low.
With fresh made water without anything in the aquarium I had about 115mV.
Now with living rock and Chemi-Pure Elite and Purigen in the filter it is maximun 160mV.
I have doublechecked calibration on the Redox electrode and it stil shoes 230mV on the calibration liquid and around 200mV on tapwater.
I have asked Hans-Werner to give any comment on this item by personal mail but he doesn't respond.
Has anyone seen the same?
Is the carbon source influencing the Redox electrode?
As I am starting up I don't want to put on UV before it is stabalised.
 
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