trying new ich product

[foster200]

Well it seems that my 180 gallon tank is overcome by Ich. It has come and gone for the passed two months now, the fish have done a nice job holding it off, it finally won. I just lost my red scooter, green mandarin, and my small longfin bannerfish. Moving all of my rock to get my fish wasnt really an option. I heard about this new product called Microbe-lift (Herbtana). I heard rave reviews from my LFS. I decided to try it. I am currently on day two of treatment, i see a noticable difference in my sailfin tang, he looks so much better. Ich has decreased on the others slightly. All of the other life in my tank (lps, sps, leathers, anems, shrimp, stars, crabs, snails) have not seemed to be bothered by this, which is great!. I will let you know the final results. Treatment lasts for 10 days.

 

[wooden_reefer]

Treatment lasts for 10 days.

For whatever reason any drug may work against ich, ten days seems too short, unless the drug can kill all life stages of ich.

 

[foster200]

I was thinking the same. 10 days seems a tad too soon. I was going to continue treatment until the bottle was gone. It treats 260 gallons for 10 days, mine is only 180. Im hoping that it takes care of all of it. ???

 

[Stuart60611]

I agree. Unless the drug can kill ich in all life stages, then it for sure will not work in eliminating the parasite from the system in just 10 days because the lifecycle of ich is much longer. If it does not kill the ich in all stages, then what this drug will likely do is kill some of the ich in certain stages and help the fish fight off the ich on their own which will not be permanent irradication of the parasite from the system and therefore may still expose your fish to future problems.

 

[blennielove]

Greetings,
I too am dealing with ich in a reef system of 225 gallons. I've tried many products - Ich Attack by Kordon, Herbtana, Kick Ich - all appropriately spaced at the same time. What I noticed is that my Elegance Coral and one patch of Green Polyp Coral would close after I put in the Herbtana for a few hours. Another point to note specifically about Herbtana is that this product does not claim to kill any form of ich. It claims to work by increasing the fishes' immune system. The fishes immune system then fights off the ich.
Sad to say, I've lost several fishes before tearing out 260 pound of live rock and corals to put the fishes in a hospital tank.
This is only MY experience and even though I'm thinking differently about ich treatment, I wish you success!

 

[foster200]

Good point. Thanks. True, it cant kill all forms of ich in ten days, but it can make the fish healthy so that ich does not appear in the first place. So, that stage will die off with no host. The 2nd wave will hatch and attack the fish, at this point the medication has run out and they will be infested again, so i treat them again, fighting off the ich and getting rid of that stage. Im not sure that I am explaining that right but it makes sense to me. Do you think this way would work? It would probably require several doses over the period of 4 weeks. Am I just delaying the inevitable here?

 

[blennielove]

As long as there is A fish in your tank, the ich will have a host.
The fish can be infected but you are not able to see it - like in the gills where ich likes to go.
I wished, prayed, and dreamt that these organic products would work but at the end after loosing my favorite Kole Tang (he just looked pale one night and went down hill within hours.) and seeing my Powder Blue going down the same path, I decided that waiting might be right for me (who is not sick with ich) but not worth the gamble with my fishes lives.
I spent hours of research on "reef safe" treatments and hundreds of dollars but at the end I had to pull them out, fresh water dip by Powder Blue and Atlantic Blue tangs, keep them in hypo saline and I'm waiting for my quinine sulphate which should arrive tomorrow.
There are much information available at WetWebMedia.com and they have been a great resource and support for many reefers like us. Take a look there if you have a chance.
Best Wishes!

 

[sfboarders]

I spent hours of research on "reef safe" treatments and hundreds of dollars but at the end I had to pull them out, fresh water dip by Powder Blue and Atlantic Blue tangs, keep them in hypo saline and I'm waiting for my quinine sulphate which should arrive tomorrow.

Sorry to hijack this thread but what is this quinine sulphate stuff? Is this stuff proven to remove ich like copper, hyposalinity, or tank transfer method? Also do you plan on using the quinine sulphate during hyposalinity?

 

[blennielove]

Yikes! Now I feel bad - is that what "hijack" means?

There are lots of info on Quinine Sulphate on WetWebMedia.com
Here's a link:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm

According to Mr. Fenner, he believes it causes less stress to fish than copper.

About using both hypo and quinine, no. I am raising SG as we speak.

For Foster2000 - there is a really nice article written by Steven Pro regarding Ich:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php

Another good one by Fenner: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm

I could keep a log of my Quinine Phosphate treatment tomorrow on a new thread if people are interested.

 

[ikktrdr]

I have to say, I thought I could beat ich myself. My fish were very healthy, active, and well fed. After about 2 weeks of messing around with another product the infestation became so bad that I began losing some fish and knew I would be losing some of my favorite fish. I had the same problem, too much rock and I didn't want to disturb my corals. I decided to remove all corals and convert to a fish only tank so I could treat the entire tank with copper. I will set up another reef tank with fish that aren't as susceptible to ich. Unfortunately, I moved too slowly in the time period that I first noticed ich to the time I began using copper. I lost many fish, some of which I had for 5 years. I did manage to save some of the fish I was most worried about and they are presently doing very well. All I can say is that the guys that come on here saying there is really only 2 ways to eradicate ich are probably right. I wish you the best in your efforts and hope it all works out for you, but I must say I learned a very big lesson the hard way and will never take ich for granted again.

 

[sfboarders]

Yikes! Now I feel bad - is that what "hijack" means?

There are lots of info on Quinine Sulphate on WetWebMedia.com
Here's a link:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm

According to Mr. Fenner, he believes it causes less stress to fish than copper.

About using both hypo and quinine, no. I am raising SG as we speak.

For Foster2000 - there is a really nice article written by Steven Pro regarding Ich:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php

Another good one by Fenner: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm

I could keep a log of my Quinine Phosphate treatment tomorrow on a new thread if people are interested.

I'd like to know the status of your quinine treatment.

My fish are in hypo right now and will be in week 3 tomorrow. The only thing I do not like about hypo is maintaining the pH. I swear I will be out of pH test by the time I raise my SG and maintain pH. As far as spots they were all gone by day 2 of lowering my SG and it was not at 1.008 yet.

How long does quinine treatment take? On National Fish Pharmacy it says 3 treatments every 3 days for at least 9 days. Is that all you have to do? Can you use other Amquel + with quinine? Are you using the Crypto-Pro stuff or the quinine sulphate?

 

[blennielove]

I'm feeding like crazy in my 55 gal hospital tank and doing 20 gallon water changes daily and using Seachem Marine Buffer to hold parameters as steady as I can. pH 8.4, Ammonia 0.5, Nitrate 0, temperature 82 degrees. I will be raising SG back up towards 1.023 by doing water changes every 12 hours or so with freshly made RO/DI at SG 1.023. I may not get there as I've read that some fish have a hard time acclimating up but I'll observe them closely.
I ordered my quinine sulphate from National Fish Pharmacy and will be following strict directions. It is a treatment that I will carry out by the book - none of my mixing three/four "reef safe ones". I'll also be doing a freshwater dip tonight on the Atlantic Blue as he was observed scratching a lot today. I'll start new thread tomorrow!

 

[foster200]

so basically this treatment is only a temporary fix (at best). What i really need to do is to remove all of my fish and treat them separately. I have only been in this hobby for 3 months now, so i do not really know alot about it. I have a spare 30 gallon tank that i can set up. how can I prevent this in the future. I dont understand, I bought really nice RO system and all of my parameters are outstanding! I have dedicated so much time and money to this tank in the passed 3 months and it is really dissapointing to know that apparently Im not doing it right.

 

[Stuart60611]

I have had a very bad experience with quinine sulfate, and there are some extremely important things to keep in mind. First and most importantly, it kills all algae so if you have chateo or a lot of algae in your tank, be ready to do some major and rapid water changes to avoid a serious ammonia spike. Furthermore, it often destorys your biological filter. To combat this, you have to do a lot of water changes and re-add the appropriate amount of quinine with each change. I would also suggest have some good live bacteria, such as biodigest, on hand and dose it regularly to help re-establish the biological filter.

My experience was within 24 hours of adding quinine in my system (a fowlr consisting of almost exclusively base rock) I had a major ammonia spike that, despite doing several large water changes and adding a ton of amquel, I could not get under control quick enough resulting in a bunch of fish deaths. I know several other people who had similar experiences with ammonia problems when dosing quinine.

From what I have read fish seem to tolerate it well, and it can result in complete irradication of ich from a system, but sometimes several appications are required. I also read that it is the most rapid treatment in terms of riding the parasites on the fish's body so that it sometimes is the best choice for a very sick fish you want to save but time is of the essence.

 

[foster200]

Could one of you explain quinine sulphate? I have never heard of this before. What is it and what does it do? does it kill all inverts like copper would? Sorry, still very new to the hobby.

 

[sfboarders]

I have had a very bad experience with quinine sulfate, and there are some extremely important things to keep in mind. First and most importantly, it kills all algae so if you have chateo or a lot of algae in your tank, be ready to do some major and rapid water changes to avoid a serious ammonia spike. Furthermore, it often destorys your biological filter. To combat this, you have to do a lot of water changes and re-add the appropriate amount of quinine with each change. I would also suggest have some good live bacteria, such as biodigest, on hand and dose it regularly to help re-establish the biological filter.

My experience was within 24 hours of adding quinine in my system (a fowlr consisting of almost exclusively base rock) I had a major ammonia spike that, despite doing several large water changes and adding a ton of amquel, I could not get under control quick enough resulting in a bunch of fish deaths. I know several other people who had similar experiences with ammonia problems when dosing quinine.

From what I have read fish seem to tolerate it well, and it can result in complete irradication of ich from a system, but sometimes several appications are required. I also read that it is the most rapid treatment in terms of riding the parasites on the fish's body so that it sometimes is the best choice for a very sick fish you want to save but time is of the essence.

How long does quinine treatment last? If my hyposalinity fails I'd like to try another treatment besides copper. I've been dosing with amquel + during hypo to keep the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate low but it sounds like you can do the same if you use quinine sulfate. Maintaining pH is a PITA with hypo.

 

[RBU1]

I have used that same product. It was given to me for free at the Macna event in Atlantic City. I was hopeful that it would work but sad to say it did not. All Reef Safe products are garbage and a waste of money. I am thinking about putting Holy water in a bottle and calling it a reef safe ich treatment. I would probably have the same results as all the other products on the market.

The only things that work are copper and hypo.....I am not a fan of hypo but people say it works.

If you want your system to be ich free remove all your fish and leave your tank fallow for 12 weeks. You cant say its not feasable because I have done it with the livestock from my 300. It is a pain in the neck removing 500 pounds of rock and coral but in the end I hope it pays off.....

My tank is still fishless since Aug and will remain that way till Middle of Dec. I picked up a 125 that I am using as a treatment tank. I will use that 125 for all my new fish and will treat them with Cupramine.

I wish you luck sometimes this hobby is frustrating. If you take the time and money to do things properly I think its worth it.

 

[RBU1]

Could one of you explain quinine sulphate? I have never heard of this before. What is it and what does it do? does it kill all inverts like copper would? Sorry, still very new to the hobby.

I am also not a fan of this treatment

Chloriquine is the treatment if I am not mistaken. It is a human drug used for melaria. The problems with using this is it destroys any biological filtration you have and is not possible to test for. So how do you know if you have the proper dose in your system if you cant test for it.

 

[wooden_reefer]

I have had a very bad experience with quinine sulfate, and there are some extremely important things to keep in mind. First and most importantly, it kills all algae so if you have chateo or a lot of algae in your tank, be ready to do some major and rapid water changes to avoid a serious ammonia spike. Furthermore, it often destorys your biological filter. To combat this, you have to do a lot of water changes and re-add the appropriate amount of quinine with each change. I would also suggest have some good live bacteria, such as biodigest, on hand and dose it regularly to help re-establish the biological filter.

My experience was within 24 hours of adding quinine in my system (a fowlr consisting of almost exclusively base rock) I had a major ammonia spike that, despite doing several large water changes and adding a ton of amquel, I could not get under control quick enough resulting in a bunch of fish deaths. I know several other people who had similar experiences with ammonia problems when dosing quinine.

From what I have read fish seem to tolerate it well, and it can result in complete irradication of ich from a system, but sometimes several appications are required. I also read that it is the most rapid treatment in terms of riding the parasites on the fish's body so that it sometimes is the best choice for a very sick fish you want to save but time is of the essence.

Anything that destroys biological filter is to be avoided if possible.

The ease of QT is a very important part of effectiveness.

Patience is not the same as strenuous work.

With copper and nitrification in QT, I don't need to change water any more than in DT.

The eight or more weeks of QT comes and goes easily. I never have the incentive to cut short any QT. Eradication of ich has always worked for me for over 25 years.

 

[Stuart60611]

I cannot remember how long quinine sulfate treatment is to last. I did my treatment with it quite a while ago. Fenner from wetwebmedia.com has written on this treatment and is, perhaps, a person to obtain information about the treatment. The above post is correct in stating that the drug was originally designed to treat malaria in humans which apparently is similar to ich in fish. Fenner recommends quinine treatements over copper on scaleless fish, such as puffers, eels, and sharks. However, I have personally treated puffers with cupramine without incident. For me, after over a 1 year battle with ich, the only treatment that worked was cupramine. Because I have a fowlr with base rock and not much fauna in the system, I treated the entire display with cupramine at a .5 level for 30 full days maintaining tank temperature at 82F. I had to add quite a bit more cupramine at first to get to a stable .5 level, but after several days I was able to maintain a very steady .5 level. Fish have been 100% ich free for over 2 months. All measurable copper has been removed from my system with cubrisorb/carbon, and no staining has occured on my tank or any of the rocks or sandbed. Currently, tank and its inhabitants are doing very well.