TTM stress and opinion.

[rffanat1c]

First off let me clarify I'm aware of proper procedures, ich cycle, and fallow periods. I've got a clean cycled QT but had a bad experience with TTM and losing a clown during it. I was using buckets and airstones for that and now I'm going to use 10 gallon tanks and a powerhead.

Here's my question. I brought home a wild caught pair last night I had to put in my DT. I knew they'd be covered in ich this morning and they were. Should I let them strengthen up in my DT before starting TTM or just do it. I'm getting my second 10 gallon today so I could start it tonight but I don't want to stress them out too bad. What's worse? Starting TTM now or letting them have ich for a couple of weeks and then doing it?

 

[alprazo]

It makes no sense why they would be clear last night and be "covered" with ich today. It takes several life cycles to develop an infectious load great enough to cover a fish. Even with velvet, it is very short. If you are seeing spots - it is probably velvet. TTM wont work for velvet.

 

[rffanat1c]

That's what I thought about ich. But I thought velvet was velvety not salt like

 

[rffanat1c]

Thinking now it's brook

 

[ThRoewer]

It makes no sense why they would be clear last night and be "covered" with ich today. It takes several life cycles to develop an infectious load great enough to cover a fish. Even with velvet, it is very short. If you are seeing spots - it is probably velvet. TTM wont work for velvet.

Not if he bought the fish already sick and fully infected - keep in mind these are fresh.
What should be next - because the QT is "clean" - is that it looks like they get better and then get the next wave.

If the diagnosis is clearly Cryptocaryon hyposalinity may be a less stressful alternative - it is my preferred ich treatment and most fish handle it well. The idea is the same as with TTM - prevent the parasites from reproducing after they left the fish. Two weeks should be enough but 4 are usually better.
I did this with my percula and they cleared up in 3 days and didn't show any new nodules.

Neither hyposalinity nor TTM will do anything against Brooklynella, Amyloodinium, Uronema or Trichodina infection.
A serious Broklynella or Amyloodinium infection can produce spots that look like ich nodules. The difference is that these spots are rather blurry and at close inspection the whole fish looks like covered with a thin film of whiteish slime. Cryptocaryon nodules are more defined and at least at early stages the rest of the fish's skin looks fine.

 

[ThRoewer]

Get some clear pictures. A video would even be better.

How did they look and behave at the store?
How do they behave now.

 

[rffanat1c]

So first off how they were at the store. No visual signs of sickness, distress, heavy breathing. Fish were brought home and drip acclimated for three hours since LFS salinity was 1.009. Today when I woke up, you could see white spots on the edges of the fins and all over both of their bodies. They ate a bunch of mysis shrimp.

After a day of thinking and planning, I stopped at my LFS and picked up another 10 gallon tank. I already had one setup for my coral QT that has one large piece of live rock in it and has been running for weeks. So I took them out of the DT and placed them in this 10 gallon and dosed it with Paraguard.

I took the second tank and filled it with fresh brand new water, heater, and a powerhead that all were clean and sterilized. Tomorrow morning, I will take them out of the first one, put them in the second one and begin TTM and continue dosing Paraguard. Once I'm done with TTM, I can put them in my 37G QT that is clean from disease.

I cannot see the spots well under my lights with the blues off. I attached two pics and a video of them in the first QT. Under the blues, its easier to see the spots. It is not a film on their bodies, but these spots seemed to have shown up overnight. Brook seems to make the most sense from what I can tell, but only symptoms are what is on the skin. And no it is not sand, I'm bare bottom in all my tanks. And most of what you see is particles in the water being blown around after cleaning the glass. If you look at the male's rear lower fin, you can see some what spots on the edge of his fin. I can see white spots peppered all over their bodies under the blues easily. They are all very small and all over. I cannot get a photo with the blues on as my iPhone no likely blues and I have no other camera.

Also they are wild caught, not captive. I couldn't pass up a pair for $40 so I knew I'd be dealing with something just not what.

 

[ThRoewer]

With wild clownfish I would always be more concerned about Brooklynella and bacterial infections than Cryptocaryon.

I don't see Cryptocaryon (Ich) in those pictures (unless the parasits just dropped off the fish and all that's left ar the lesions).

I would wait before exposing them to the stress of TTM, especially if the diagnosis isn't bullet proof ich (which seems rather unlikely from all you mentioned above).
And TTM is not only useless but counterproductive in case this is brook or bacterial.

1.009 g/l is the salinity level for hyposalinity treatment. Depending on how long they were kept at that salinity they might already be ich free. After two weeks in hyposalinity all ich should have left the fish and new infection shouldn't be possible since the protomonts can't encyst at this low salinity. I actually prefer hyposalinity over TTM (for which I really don't have the space).

Actually bringing them up to a normal salinity level of 1.022 to 1.026 in less than a day was not a good idea. It would have been better to match that salinity in the QT and raise it slowly over the course of several days. It took me almost a week to bring my percula from hyposalinity back to normal salinity.

To me it also doesn't really look or sound like brook at this point.

If it were my fish I would get a broadband antibiotic like Trimethoprim/Sulfamethoxazole (Trade names: Bactrim, Bactrimel, Biseptol, Co-trimoxazole, Cotrim, Resprim, Septrin, Septra, Sulfatrim, Trisul, Polytrimand) and Formalin/malachite green just in case.
Chloroquine phosphate works also against Amyloodinium, Brooklynella, Uronema and even Cryptocaryon.

 

[rffanat1c]

One thing I just realized/remember is that I saw this on a black clownfish I previously had. It looked identical symptom wise and it cleared up on its own after a week or two. I had diagnosed it as ich, but cannot be certain as I did not put it under a microscope.

I understand what you are saying about the stress, but there have been too many success stories using TTM and people screwing up hypo for me not to use it. At least this way I can avoid treating my DT and I can treat the smaller bare tanks. I don't think TTM will be counter productive since I have to assume ich is on all fishes and this will eliminate that if nothing else.

Being that I cannot fully ID what is going on, leaving them in the DT could have been a sure death if it was velvet or brook. If it is simply bacterial or ich, then TTM shouldn't kill them nor should ich by itself. All my tanks are in the basement where the only foot traffic they get is me feeding the dogs twice a day so stress is minimized and there are no lights on the tank, only ambient sunlight.

I started with a dose of Paraguard tonight just to try and head off whatever it may be. Tomorrow I am picking up Kordon Rid Ich+ and hopefully some NLS Ick Shield Powder from my LFS as you suggested in another thread. Of course I will not combine all of these meds and will follow their instructions. It seems the Kordon is the same as Paraguard but with formalin added to it. I also have Kanaplex and prazipro on hand as well.

I took into consideration the fish were eating, swimming all over the tank normally, not breathing heavy, flashing, no inflamed gills that I could at least get them out of the DT and somewhere to get treated while they were still relatively healthy and could handle it. If loads of people can buy a fish from their LFS, do TTM, and they handle it well, I don't think the 20 hours they spent in my DT added all that much. As for the salinity swing, I can only hope nothing bad comes of it.

 

[rffanat1c]

TTM stress and opinion.

Update. Clowns are in second 10G qt and are still eating and look good. White spots have lessened but are still there. Pretty sure at this point it's not velvet or brook. They've had one treatment of Paraguard and today were given hikari ich x since it has formalin and melchaite green

 

[ThRoewer]

Clownfish and especially Premnas have quite sensitive skin and easily get bacterial infections - especially when fresh and without an anemone. It may have been a light bacterial infection since they where in hyposalinity before. My percula had some of these spots in hyposalinity. First I thought it might still be ich or worse but a closer examination under the microscope showed that it were just slightly infected wounds from fights with the fridmani that were with them in treatment.

I suspect when you bought the Premnas they caught them with a standard fishnet - always a bad idea but especially with Premnas and their gill thorns. The net may have caused some skin abrasions that then infected.
After you are done with TTM or maybe even during it I would give them something antibacterial.

 

[rffanat1c]

They did catch them in a regular net yes. I don't think the lfs ran hypo on purpose, they just weren't keeping track of their sg. They had another maroon about 6" in a separate system covered in a more severe case of what I witnessed on mine. I didn't observe anything on mine until I got home. The small one still has some definitive white dots on the clear edges of the fins. I'll monitor during TTM