Tube feeding success - regal angel

[Martini5788]

That's one of the things I really miss about Germany - you can get these kind of things at every pharmacy, medical supply stores and even amazon.de - for the same reasons you can't get them in the US.

Infusion lines, syringes, sharp needles - no problem.

Yeah if I ever have to tube feed, or really perform any kind of medical procedure at the house, I have access to literally anything I could possibly want. But like I said before, if you go to a vet hospital( especially one that caters to exotic animals in addition to dogs and cats), it shouldn't be a problem to get the equipment. They just won't let you take the needle part of it, for safety reasons. If a vet will rx interceptor for red bugs in tanks, they will definitely do this without issue.

 

[ThRoewer]

From a 0.5 ml Fine Tip Pipette
a piece of a Bubble Magnus Replacement dosing pump hose
and a Easy Glide 1cc Luer Slip TB Syringe
I build this feeder:

The tip has a diameter of 2 mm (6 Fr) and the shaft is 3 mm (9 Fr).
The tip needed some sanding to round it off and the shaft needed some smoothing.

Next step is to test it on a goldfish.

I also found this Innovative Marine AccuDrip Acclimation Kit, which is basically a infusion kit without needles.

The hose diameter is about 3 mm and the wall quite thin, so I'm not sure if this is suitable.

 

[alprazo]

The tip appears a little rigid, I recommend spraying it with Pam cooking spray before use. Nice work BTW, should do the trick.

 

[ThRoewer]

Yeah, I was thinking about the need for some lubrication.

The tip is actually pretty flexible - it should work for a fish where mouth, esophagus and stomach are pretty much on a straight line.

This is a diagram that represents a carp or similar fish:

Pomacanthidae should not be too different in the arrangement of internal organs.

Before catching and starting to tube feed the regal I will wait for DD to respond to my latest e-mail about this.

 

[Dmorty217]

Yeah, I was thinking about the need for some lubrication.

The tip is actually pretty flexible - it should work for a fish where mouth, esophagus and stomach are pretty much on a straight line.

This is a diagram that represents a carp or similar fish:

Pomacanthidae should not be too different in the arrangement of internal organs.

Before catching and starting to tube feed the regal I will wait for DD to respond to my latest e-mail about this.

Did you mention the Regal hadn't eaten anytime before this? If they have record of the issue from early on (before 14 days)? If so I think you will get this resolved no problem (credit or refund)

 

[ThRoewer]

I contacted them after 4 days and informed them that this fish wasn't behaving right and also not eating.

While it might not end in a financial loss, I still hate loosing a fish.

 

[Dmorty217]

I contacted them after 4 days and informed them that this fish wasn't behaving right and also not eating.

While it might not end in a financial loss, I still hate loosing a fish.

I'm with you I just meant not a 100% loss, money included. Have you tried force feeding yet? What about clams on the half shell or some other fresh sea food? Even with corallivore butterflies I have been able to get a feeding response with fresh seafood of some sort or another

 

[ThRoewer]

I tried everything - the fish didn't even look at it. The whole behavior is completely off.

I'm still waiting for the response from DD about tube feeding the fish.

 

[Dmorty217]

I tried everything - the fish didn't even look at it. The whole behavior is completely off.

I'm still waiting for the response from DD about tube feeding the fish.

Well I can assure you that they won't suggest you attempt it! Desperate times call for desperate measures. Wish I lived closer I would try and help you with the FF. Once you get the hang of it, its like riding a bike. I did kill several goldfish learning how to properly force feed but they were only 3/4" and mouths were barely big enough to put the catheter in

 

[MrsBugmaster]

Several months ago I talked to my exotic vet about a fish that would not eat. She sold me a small catheter (remove needle) for $5, and told me how to tube feed it. She said to insert catheter just past the gills. And depending on size of fish use 0.1cc to 0.3 cc twice a day.Feeding tube/catheter fits right on a 1ml syringe. So try your vet or find an exotic pet vet.

 

[McPuff]

This is a cool idea/practice! I've removed the stomach contents of countless fish by inserting hoses into their stomachs... but never have I forced food INTO their stomachs. I'm definitely going to keep this in mind if it ever becomes an issue with a new fish down the road. Thanks!

 

[ThRoewer]

Well I can assure you that they won't suggest you attempt it! Desperate times call for desperate measures. Wish I lived closer I would try and help you with the FF. Once you get the hang of it, its like riding a bike. I did kill several goldfish learning how to properly force feed but they were only 3/4" and mouths were barely big enough to put the catheter in

I'm not looking for LiveAquaria recommending it. It's just if they say I'm on my own if I do it and that they won't cover an eventual loss after the procedure I really have to rethink this. It's simply that the fish may already be beyond rescue.

Several months ago I talked to my exotic vet about a fish that would not eat. She sold me a small catheter (remove needle) for $5, and told me how to tube feed it. She said to insert catheter just past the gills. And depending on size of fish use 0.1cc to 0.3 cc twice a day.Feeding tube/catheter fits right on a 1ml syringe. So try your vet or find an exotic pet vet.

I think the feeder I build should work.
Today, after work, I will stop at PetsMart and get one or two practice fish - hopefully they have some bigger goldfish.

 

[horseplay]

I'm not looking for LiveAquaria recommending it. It's just if they say I'm on my own if I do it and that they won't cover an eventual loss after the procedure I really have to rethink this. It's simply that the fish may already be beyond rescue.

You've way passed their 14 day guarantee period right?

 

[ThRoewer]

Just got an e-mail from Steve Krogh, the Operations Manager at the Coral Farm for Drs. Foster and Smith / LiveAquaria.

While they don't recommend it being done by someone who hasn't done it before he still gave me instruction on how to do it (they do it at their facility as well sometimes).

They will also refund the fish regardless of the outcome.

I will go ahead and first practice on some goldfish or other cheap freshwater fish.
After I got the hang of it I will see how it goes with the regal.

You've way passed their 14 day guarantee period right?

The fish may not be dead, but the issue started right away. A fish like this can make it without food for 2 months before actually dying.

 

[ThRoewer]

OK, I build 4 feeding syringes:

1. tip made from a 0.5 transfer pipette. It is a bit stiff but has a pretty ideal shape

2. tip made from a 10 Fr urine catheter (off eBay). This has the largest ID for feeding larger bits.

3. tip made from 1/16" ID, 1/8" OD silicone tubing (McMaster-Carr).

4. tip made from 040" ID, .085" OD silicone tubing (McMaster-Carr).

I got the STAT and the Pedialyte

I got two guinea pig goldfish to practice on.

The one thing missing is the Tricaine-S from Pentairaes.

I don't think doing it without some narcotic will be a good idea with the regal.
So I got some clove oil from Wholefoods today. I will try it on one of the goldfish.

 

[alprazo]

Did the angiocath ever arrive?

 

[ThRoewer]

Did the angiocath ever arrive?

Not yet.

 

[Dmorty217]

The first or last feeder you made looks most promising. Or similar to what Alprazo is sending you. (Sent me one last yr)

 

[alprazo]

That is surprising. I mailed it last Friday. I wonder......

I think that the catheters will be your best bet. I use an nasogastric tube connected to a turkey baster for a shark before. It is best to put it into the fridge before use to stiffen it up. Spray with Pam just before using. In the old days, we used Pam for the colonoscopies.

Be careful with the clove oil. The ms-222 / finquell / tricaine is much safer. Also pick up a milligram scale from Amazon. You will need it for dosing

 

[ThRoewer]

Steve Krogh from DD told me, they use a silicone tube like the one I have in this picture (between still sealed syringe and pipette):

That would be in the range of airline tubing. I feel that might be a bit too much.
But the 0.085 tube may be too flimsy.
I feel the 1/8 silicone tube may be best in softness yet stiff enough to actually work.

I had planned to start on Sunday, but my wife planned up my time differently.
Hopefully the Tricaine-S will arrive tomorrow.

I have a few more questions:

1. Is the STAT used directly or diluted, if diluted at which ratio?

2. What is the ideal dosage of the Tricaine-S? Would it be possible to make base solution so it can be measured in ml?

3. which milligram scale on amazon would actually be worth the money.?I've worked with quite a few lab grade precision scales and everything remotely trustworthy was well above $1k.