Tunze - False Advertisement?

[snorvich]

I have no problem that you prefer Vortech. Each picks what they like.

 

[LooseHip]

With the release of this report, shouldn't Tunze change their GPH ratings they have listed on their website? Might be a little misleading to new hobbyist no?

 

[rysher]

SEll me your tunze's, i'm looking for 6055 and a couple bigger ones for my 180.
since it is not rated as tunze claimed to be, sell it to me cheap!!!
i'll take a boatload off your hands.


This really is not a huge catastrophe, it is a set back, it stings, it sucks it happened, but we will come out better for this.
pretty stand up company, instead of disputing the findings they stepped up and face it like a man.


At this point we conclude that the study is correct for the flow produced by the actual pump itself and we will improve the pumps in a retrofittable manner, though this will take time as new parts must be designed and produced.
thankfully someone called them out, or they won't improve.
vortech needs some catching up to do after the RETROFITTABLE changes!!
i can still hear my neihgbors vortech whizzing like a tribe of mosquitos everytime it goes full blast.

 

[Mindflux]

SEll me your tunze's, i'm looking for 6055 and a couple bigger ones for my 180.
since it is not rated as tunze claimed to be, sell it to me cheap!!!
i'll take a boatload off your hands.


This really is not a huge catastrophe, it is a set back, it stings, it sucks it happened, but we will come out better for this.
pretty stand up company, instead of disputing the findings they stepped up and face it like a man.


At this point we conclude that the study is correct for the flow produced by the actual pump itself and we will improve the pumps in a retrofittable manner, though this will take time as new parts must be designed and produced.
thankfully someone called them out, or they won't improve.
vortech needs some catching up to do after the RETROFITTABLE changes!!
i can still hear my neihgbors vortech whizzing like a tribe of mosquitos everytime it goes full blast.

I agree. If you have a 6055 to sell PM me. I'll take it if it's cheap.

LOL'd at the mosquito part. My MP10 sounds like that full bore... lol

 

[dlp211]

As I was drinking my morning coffee getting ready for a long workday in the sun I was browsing through Advanced Aquarist as usual and found a rather interesting article. The study measures actual flow output in GPH along with some other data for many pumps. Some did better then the manufacturer claimed and some didn't do so well. As published in this study Tunze has been advertising their pumps as having roughly 2x the flow then they actually do.

I wonder how Tunze is going to react to this? I mean if I were to pay a premium for a pump (which I have) and got half of what I paid for I would be pretty upset (which I am). I know several people who designed their tanks around tunze to get a specific flow for sps corals and are going to find out soon that they only have half of what they paid for.

Just for comparison if I ordered a sports car and it came with half the engine I surely wouldn't accept it and I am sure the company wouldn't either. In this case return would be the only option but I am not sure what Tunze who has tons of these pumps out there is going to be able to do to make their customers happy.

Any thoughts?

Link to said article
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/201...ider&utm_medium=slider&utm_campaign=clickthru

While the numbers may not be what was theoretically possible and not what they put on the box, I have to wonder, does it matter. The fact is that the Tunze vs Vortech thread is a staple on RC with defenders of both.

To me, it appears that the amount of flow may not be as important as many people believe it to be, and perhaps, it has more to do with the type of flow, or the aquarist, or a million other factors.

Your analogy should be more like this:

I bought a sports car and I thought it was super fast, and I never complained because I thought it was a beast, but then Car and Driver did a test and it turns out it wasn't as fast as I thought it was.

Your perception of the pump changed despite it fulfilling all your needs up and until this point. You shouldn't feel ripped off, or even disappointed, Tunze has admitted that the methodology was correct and is taking possible steps to correct this, which says more about Tunze then this article says about any other company.

/Own 2 Vortech MP40wES

 

[James77]

I would not consider it false advertising if they did not have the intention of deceiving the consumer. Roger describes their testing methods below, and it was their well educated guess as to what the flow was.

Where did we get our flow numbers?
We derived our flow numbers in two ways, by a test termed a “bag test” and by theoretical calculations. The bag test is just as simple as it sounds, a collapsed bag is placed over the end of the pump and inflated by the pump with water, the time to fill the bag is measured and the flow is calculated. This method has definite limitations, it places backpressure on the pump, and it cannot be used on larger pumps given the limits of bag volume and reliable timing. For all pumps a theoretical calculation is made based on propeller surface area and rotation frequency.
Our bag test results are consistent (within + or – 10%) with theoretical results on the pump models 6015, 6025, 6045, 6055, 6065 and 6085. This led us to rely on theoretical numbers. The biggest pump that a bag test can be performed on is the 6105 and the inaccuracy of flow numbers on the 6105 has a different origin than 6205 and 6305 inaccuracies. The 6205 and 6305 flow numbers were only based on theoretical calculations. The 6105, when released, was near specified flow and was bag tested with a result of 90% of theoretical, however, later modifications to reduce noise relied on theoretical flow numbers and flow was lost to these modifications. On models 6205 and 6305 the fundamental issue is that the theoretical flow cannot be reached due to overly constricted intake and output.

I have used both the Vortech MP40w and Tunze 6105 side by side. I have used them both in deiiferent configurations as well. I can say that the Tunze with the stock cover on it moves the tank FAR more than the Vortechs ever did, despite the greater difference in flow from the Vortech. I have had the 6205 cover on a 6105 sitting right next to a Vortech MP40, and the flow seemed extremely similar. I am not disputing the testing methods in the article, just giving real world experience of what i have seen in my tank from both of these pumps over the years.

Tunze has proven itself an outstanding company in innovation and service. They are not the type of company that would intentionally deceive their customers. It will be interesting to see how they address this, and what new test results will conclude. I can tell you that the flow I get from Tunzes I have right now has pleased me, despite it being less than I thought. Numbers really mean nothing, it is what they do in your tank.

 

[James77]

Roger also sounded extremely confident that within 6 months they will be at or very near the stated flow. Slight hiccup, and this company will correct it. If the pumps are performing as well as they are now, they will be even greater once their flow is correctred.

 

[roni]

I think the last two posts are spot on and have more eloquently expressed what I feel better then I probably would have.

I'm looking forward to seeing what Tunze comes up with to increase flow further. My own empiric observations have been that the 6105s and 6205s already move a ton of water, more then is possibly required.

BTW, disclaimer, I'm actually a big fan of both companies and their products.

 

[Orcrone]

While the numbers may not be what was theoretically possible and not what they put on the box, I have to wonder, does it matter. The fact is that the Tunze vs Vortech thread is a staple on RC with defenders of both.

To me, it appears that the amount of flow may not be as important as many people believe it to be, and perhaps, it has more to do with the type of flow, or the aquarist, or a million other factors.

Your analogy should be more like this:

I bought a sports car and I thought it was super fast, and I never complained because I thought it was a beast, but then Car and Driver did a test and it turns out it wasn't as fast as I thought it was.

Your perception of the pump changed despite it fulfilling all your needs up and until this point. You shouldn't feel ripped off, or even disappointed, Tunze has admitted that the methodology was correct and is taking possible steps to correct this, which says more about Tunze then this article says about any other company.
/Own 2 Vortech MP40wES

Some very good points and a well thought out analogy!!!!

 

[tkeracer619]

I'm pretty sure they can get more flow with prop changes but just like any other prop pump ive modified it will increase power use and possibly overload the motor block shortening its life or cause start up issues. Like I said in my first post im interested to see how this is fixed but with the few 6305s that I have seen fail I wonder how hard the motor blocks are being driven already vs what they will be required to do to get rated flow. I wonder if the future upgrade will start a new warranty period. Would suck if pumps start burning up in the name of more flow. Not trying to be overly skeptical just thinking outloud.

Edit: that is a better analogy for sure. Unfortunatly flow is a lot harder to measure then speed.

if they don't change the rated flows until the problem is fixed then surely that would be false advertisment right? Not sure when they found out about this but it obviously wasnt today since they had time to confirm the results. Its kinda why it ticks me off because I probably baught one while they knew the numbers on the box were incorrect.

 

[James77]

if they don't change the rated flows until the problem is fixed then surely that would be false advertisment right? Not sure when they found out about this but it obviously wasnt today since they had time to confirm the results. Its kinda why it ticks me off because I probably baught one while they knew the numbers on the box were incorrect.

You do not know when they found out. Seeing as how they did confirm the results, I'd hazard to guess they are already working on a solution. Im sorry, but you seem awful eager to slap the false advertising claim on them. Why is that? Roger has already made many comments on the subject and their plans to deal with it....are you taking those into consideration? Are you expecting a massive recall, complete with box changes and exchanges.....or would you not think it more rational for them to solve the problem with modifications and correct the problem that way. They have had hiccups before and worked them out well....why do you think this problem will be any different?

Lets all sit tight and see what Tunze plans next. They are an outstanding compnay, no person can deny that. They screwed up- an honest mistake- and they will fix it in the way that will keep all customers happy. Unfortunatley threads like this sell them down the river before they are even given the chance to remedy the suituation. I still occasionally see comments from people saying they had a problem with the clamps snapping on the nanostreams, years after they solved the problem.

 

[James77]

I'm pretty sure they can get more flow with prop changes but just like any other prop pump ive modified it will increase power use and possibly overload the motor block shortening its life or cause start up issues. Like I said in my first post im interested to see how this is fixed but with the few 6305s that I have seen fail I wonder how hard the motor blocks are being driven already vs what they will be required to do to get rated flow. I wonder if the future upgrade will start a new warranty period. Would suck if pumps start burning up in the name of more flow. Not trying to be overly skeptical just thinking outloud.

Why the assumptions and speculation? You do not know what their pumps are capable of or what they are even planning to do to correct this. You do not know what they plan to do to make it up to customers....nobody knows that save for Tunze. ALL pumps can fail...the 6305s failing does not mean they are being maxed out.

Again, sit tight and see what they come up with.

 

[James77]

The issue is only restriction of the housing and this is already being addressed, by the end of the year, we will have a retrofittable solution. Look at the large intake and output area of the pumps that hit there numbers, we used smaller intake and output area mainly due to safety concerns of keeping fish, anemones and fingers out. These need to be opened up to allow more flow, we also likely have to increase prop size slightly to compensate for the resistance.
I have never left anybody up the creek and I wouldn't continue to do this job if that was the situation. I value my word and my integrity too much. Give us 6 months, you will see the progress, you will see the solution, if you have an existing pump, we will take care of it.

I think the above quote from Roger should say it all. There is no need to smash them or accuse them of anyhting unless they do not follow through on what they say. There is zero reason to believe that they will not follow through.

 

[tkeracer619]

Not trying to knock them down or slap anything on them. Like I said I was just thinking outloud and know from experience that modded prop pumps like to fail prematurly. I dont know what they are capable of and I hope its that simple of a fix but I am a bit skeptical. Its part of my joband im on the job atm so its probably bleeding over...

its not like the props they run suck and im familiar with them from rc boats and the dozen or so props I tried when modding mjs and koralias. To reliably get twice the flow is going to take a bit of work especially if the motor blocks dont have a ton of headroom.

I didnt create this thread for bashing and I have yet to respond like that. nobody has said "tunze sucks" yet...

 

[James77]

its not like the props they run suck and im familiar with them from rc boats and the dozen or so props I tried when modding mjs and koralias. To reliably get twice the flow is going to take a bit of work especially if the motor blocks dont have a ton of headroom.
.

Not sure what the motors have for head room, I do know they were capable of running at 24v, but they made the prop wider to quiet the pump. The first thing I have always thought looking at the pump is just how much space the grilles and clamps take up....its quite obvious where the lack of flow is coming from. What opening that up will do to the watts will be interesting.

 

[tkeracer619]

Good point. I know jake did that to a set of vortechs and had good results. Unfortuatly it also makes a better blender

 

[billwill]

Being an HVAC engineer working for a manufacturer that builds its own fans and has AMCA certification (Air Movement and Control Association), I can tell you that this test is a great first attempt at developing a method of standardizing flow measurement for the industrty. Considering the time and effort of many groups and committies in AMCA to develop the similar methods for airflow testing, I am not at all confident that these results are the final answer and what everything will be based on from this point forward for this type of water flow pump.

 

[kenjung]

Can we now close "Is Vortech Worth the Money " thread pops up in RC.

 

[Bobbofin]

I have had Tunze, Koralia, VorTech pumps. Although I have had some problems with VorTech pumps I feel they're the best as far as flow. The Koralia pumps sheared off the reverse direction stops and ran backwards after a while on my Aqua Controller wavemaker, even the new re-designed ones. My Tunze did not give the performance they advertised although they performed flawlessly with no breakdowns. I have had the wetside of my VorTech pumps replaced several times under warranty. If I were to do it again given the knowledge that I have from experience I would just oversize my Tunze pump selection and settle for a trouble free experince. I currently have a MP40 that the wetside has been replaced once since purchase in April 2011. Any further problems will cause me to go back to Tunze and enjoy a trouble free pump experience.

 

[Bobbofin]

have had Tunze, Koralia, VorTech pumps. Although I have had some problems with VorTech pumps I feel they're the best as far as flow. The Koralia pumps sheared off the reverse direction stops and ran backwards after a while on my Aqua Controller wavemaker, even the new re-designed ones. My Tunze did not give the performance they advertised although they performed flawlessly with no breakdowns. I have had the wetside of my VorTech pumps replaced several times under warranty. If I were to do it again given the knowledge that I have from experience I would just oversize my Tunze pump selection and settle for a trouble free experince. I currently have a MP40 that the wetside has been replaced once since purchase in April 2011. Any further problems will cause me to go back to Tunze and enjoy a trouble free pump experience.