Turnover rates, filter vs flow rates.

[Duzzy73]

Gday folks,

I realiz this may be a redundant question apologies for that, im trying to research pumps and have searched google and forums and have seen numbers ranging from 3x to 60x and wind up more baffled. In my current aquariums I run 3-6 times through the filter But have never done a mixed reef and a large one at that.

So what should the turnover be through filter/sump? Vs what should the turnover be internally as in power heads, gyros, wavemakers etc.

I’m also hoping to use the sea swirl (actually 3-4 of them) in a large mixed reef but I’m uncertain if the random flow created from them would be enough. I hate the look of powerheads on glass and hoping to avoid it.

Regards Darren

 

[griss]

As you’ve seen, the answer depends on who you ask. Usually around 10x tank volume per hour should be fine.

 

[griss]

I think if you do that with the Sea Swirls you should be fine.

 

[kharmaguru]

I also would say 10x normally BUT if you are going to divide it between 4 seaswirls and not have any other flow from powerheads then it might not be enough and you probably need to think higher. What size tank is it?

 

[wvned]

In my 240 I have 4 mp40s (6000x2+4000x2 according to mobius) plus 3 large Jebao wavemakers pushing about 15,000 more so

145 x tank volume

In my 180 I have 2 MP40 running 5000 together so

27 x tank volume
I didn't even bother adding in my return pumps 2 x 10,000lph on the 240 for example (5000gphy more)

I dont think 10x is even close and would shoot for 20 and expect to maybe need 50 and you may need more depending on what's in your tank and your aquascape.

 

[wvned]

an 800 gallon tank

4 x 1 inch sea swirls each with a 10,000 liter per hour pump feeding it would only get you to about 13.
I do not know what they cost but Maxpect makes industrial wavemakers. You might look into them.

Specifications​

INPUT	100-240V 50/60HZ
OUTPUT	DC 36v
POWER RANGE	120-450w
FLOW RATE	30,000 - 100,000 L/H 8,000 - 26,400 G/H
VELOCITY	0.5-2.4 m/s 1.6 -7.9 ft/s
WEIGHT	7kg / 15.4 lbs
CABLE	10m/20m/30m 33ft/66ft/98ft
DEPTH	10m/20m/30m 33ft/66ft/98ft
DIMENSION	580×148×100mm 22.8”×5.8”×3.9”

how it is with big tanks
what other people use isn't going to work
it's not big enough.

 

[Duzzy73]

I also would say 10x normally BUT if you are going to divide it between 4 seaswirls and not have any other flow from powerheads then it might not be enough and you probably need to think higher. What size tank is it?

It’s a 748g empty I’m running 2 sumps and 4 pumps for redundancy

 

[Duzzy73]

an 800 gallon tank

4 x 1 inch sea swirls each with a 10,000 liter per hour pump feeding it would only get you to about 13.
I do not know what they cost but Maxpect makes industrial wavemakers. You might look into them.

Specifications​

INPUT	100-240V 50/60HZ
OUTPUT	DC 36v
POWER RANGE	120-450w
FLOW RATE	30,000 - 100,000 L/H 8,000 - 26,400 G/H
VELOCITY	0.5-2.4 m/s 1.6 -7.9 ft/s
WEIGHT	7kg / 15.4 lbs
CABLE	10m/20m/30m 33ft/66ft/98ft
DEPTH	10m/20m/30m 33ft/66ft/98ft
DIMENSION	580×148×100mm 22.8”×5.8”×3.9”

how it is with big tanks
what other people use isn't going to work
it's not big enough.

Was going with 4 pumps tge issue is that 2 of those are dedicated at 2 diffe speeds via a iv each. Even with random flow educators on each I’m not sure I will get there .

it’s a trade off between the look of the tank and flow. It’s why I asked its a unique tank size.

‘thanks for the response.

regards Duzzy

 

[wvned]

It seems to depend on the shape of the tank. I find it easy to get adequate flow in my 180. I is 2 feet wide and 6 feet long. The MP40s seem to push water easily about 4 feet. I point my return nozzles at the corners and have 2 small dead spots in the rear corners. The 180 is 2 feet wide by 8 feet long and it is very hard to get flow in the middle of the tank. The bigger wave pumps still only push water 4 feet.

It's nice to want a tank to look a certain way but if nothing will do well in it what have you accomplished.

Big tanks often use closed loop systems to accomplish what you want. 1 or 2 large drains are hidden in the tank that feed large pumps pushing water out multiple outlets drilled into the tanks that can be camouflaged with rockwork.

There is also gyre flow to consider. A set of pumps work together to send the water one way around a tank in a circular pattern.
I don't care for it myself because all the animals see a current coming from one direction all the time. You can build a system that slows and then reverses the flow a couple of times a day. This emulates the tide going into and out of a lagoon with the tide. This can be done with smaller pumps because they add to the inertia of the water flowing over time.

Building an 800 gallon system compared to my 240 is as different as building my 240 is to a 40 gallon breeder.

As the tank dimensions get bigger the volume increases exponentially and the volumes of water that need to be moved around by the equipment increases the same way. I hope this doesn't sound snarky but I hope you have deep pockets. I know how much I spent getting the 240 where I wanted it and stuff is way more expensive now.

I never had any luck finding info on the next size of equipment over what I have. I am sure there are bigger pumps than MP60s.

I mistyped my post above. My 240 has 4 MP60s and 3 of the largest Jebao wavemakers in it.

perhaps

Abyzz AFC150 Flow Pump Flow (Maximum): 15,840 gph​

$2,899.99

 

[reefing102]

I was just about to mention Abyzz. I believe @o2manyfish is running one. Pricey but will get the job done.

Me personally, I’m at about 60 times turnover in my tank but I need to rescape and could probably fine tune it a lot better. The biggest part with flow is eliminating dead spots

 

[wvned]

Most tanks with coral end up in the 20-50 times range to start. Get the SPS addiction and that goes out the window.

 

[o2manyfish]

I don't know what the unique dimension of your tank is, but my 750g is 120x48x30.

I have a Panta Rhei ECM63 and a pair of the Abyzz Flo Cannons. The flow out of the Abyzz Canons are insane. If setup in the ideal position in the tank one pump will easily push the water across the length of the tank, around the end and down the other side and lay down the tentacle of LPS corals that are 20' away from the outlet of the pump.

But the ideal location for the pump, is not the ideal location for my viewing enjoyment. I have the Panta Rhei and an Abyzz in the bottom corners of the tank facing the front wall. So they go 4' and then run into a wall and go down the length of the tank. I have lots of Fleshy LPS on the bottom of my tank and even from 7-10' away from the pump the flow is too heavy after hitting the wall is too heavy at max flow settings.

The 2nd Flow Cannon is placed on the end of the tank at the bottom back aimed behind the aquascape and in pulse mode. The pulse/wave mode rocks the entire 750g tank. Everything sways back and forth gingerly. Even with the single sump return outlet which creates a counterclockwise gyre flow in the tank, this still occurs while everything is waving.

Also, the flow ratings for any of these pumps is a joke. A small cheapo pump may say it's rated to move 3k gph - But that's bogus. Maybe the water right in front of the pump recirculates the rate of 3k gph. But the effective amount of water pushed is almost nothing. Gyre pumps have great rating numbers - but the effective range of water moved isn't as far as you would expect.

I don't know what the exact advertised ratings are for the Panta Rhei and the Flow cannon are. But I think the advertised difference in flow is like 7k gph between the two pumps. However 1 pump is using 74 watts and the other uses 150w. And the 150w pushes alot more water with alot more force vs a may 25% difference in advertised output.

The Panta Rhei can move water 10' no problem. And it's a soft gentle flow. The Abyzz forcefully moves alot wider swath of water not only 10' across the tank, but around the end and back the other direction in the tank with serious oomph. Something that I know 5 or 6 3k gph pumps zip tied together can't do.

As the tank matures and your colonies get big the flow is going to get diverted by calcium masses. At that point you may need to look at adding a couple of smaller pumps in the slow zones.

Dave B

 

[Duzzy73]

I don't know what the unique dimension of your tank is, but my 750g is 120x48x30.

I have a Panta Rhei ECM63 and a pair of the Abyzz Flo Cannons. The flow out of the Abyzz Canons are insane. If setup in the ideal position in the tank one pump will easily push the water across the length of the tank, around the end and down the other side and lay down the tentacle of LPS corals that are 20' away from the outlet of the pump.

But the ideal location for the pump, is not the ideal location for my viewing enjoyment. I have the Panta Rhei and an Abyzz in the bottom corners of the tank facing the front wall. So they go 4' and then run into a wall and go down the length of the tank. I have lots of Fleshy LPS on the bottom of my tank and even from 7-10' away from the pump the flow is too heavy after hitting the wall is too heavy at max flow settings.

The 2nd Flow Cannon is placed on the end of the tank at the bottom back aimed behind the aquascape and in pulse mode. The pulse/wave mode rocks the entire 750g tank. Everything sways back and forth gingerly. Even with the single sump return outlet which creates a counterclockwise gyre flow in the tank, this still occurs while everything is waving.

Also, the flow ratings for any of these pumps is a joke. A small cheapo pump may say it's rated to move 3k gph - But that's bogus. Maybe the water right in front of the pump recirculates the rate of 3k gph. But the effective amount of water pushed is almost nothing. Gyre pumps have great rating numbers - but the effective range of water moved isn't as far as you would expect.

I don't know what the exact advertised ratings are for the Panta Rhei and the Flow cannon are. But I think the advertised difference in flow is like 7k gph between the two pumps. However 1 pump is using 74 watts and the other uses 150w. And the 150w pushes alot more water with alot more force vs a may 25% difference in advertised output.

The Panta Rhei can move water 10' no problem. And it's a soft gentle flow. The Abyzz forcefully moves alot wider swath of water not only 10' across the tank, but around the end and back the other direction in the tank with serious oomph. Something that I know 5 or 6 3k gph pumps zip tied together can't do.

As the tank matures and your colonies get big the flow is going to get diverted by calcium masses. At that point you may need to look at adding a couple of smaller pumps in the slow zones.

Dave B

The tank I’m planning is 10ft x 4ft x 2.5ft and was thinking if using 4 sea swirls each on an abyzz a400 I was going to place them every 1/3 way on the long sides. Each sea swirl fitted with a random flow generator plus eductor. Given that the tank is peninsula I’m hoping it works. Using a 4ft Cal flow weir into 2 sumps so that I’m not rushing water through the filter.

what are you using on yours socks? Or roller?