Turtle Grass

Grumpy Vet

Reefer
I am contemplating putting some turtle grass in the DSB of my fully cycled seahorse 30G hex tank.

Has anyone had experience w/ turtle grass? I have mixed luck w/ macros and I do need some hitching posts. I refuse to put the fakey corals in there.

I'd love to here thoughts.

Florida Pets

Thanks oodles.......

GV
 
That would be very cool, although from what little I've heard about it, I gather it's hard to keep long term, could be wrong...
Brian
 
GV,
I have 3 different kinds of grass. I just called florida pets and they were not in. It sounds like a private res.
I have had great luck keeping my sea grass. I recommend the book Dynamic Aquaria as a starting point on this subject. I have questions for the collector at florida pets before I order.
Here is a picture of some of mine,

66.JPG


HTH

Joe
 
Good looking tank there Joe.

I've ordered from Florida pets before and they were great. Very customer oriented and provided great communication.

They have a lil "about us" part on their website about moving down to FL and so on.....

I think they work out of their home - small operation, but was very pleased.

When you get the questions answered by John, I'd love to hear what you asked, why you asked and what the answers are.

I'm hoping to order from them, if we collectively think this is a good idea, in a week or so.
 
Here I am!!

Here I am!!

Hi guys! Yes, I am a little difficult to get a hold of by phone, e-mail is the best way. Turtle grass has done very well while I've had it in stock. I've had a few pieces for about three months now in very very poor conditions(no light, not planted). About one week ago I took three plants from their bad conditions and planted them in a ten gallon undergravel filter tank with a Home Depot 15w compact flourescent bulb. I'm starting to see new life!!!
Any questions, please feel free to post or e-mail.

P.S.
Grumpy Vet, you will get a good discount for your complimentary words. They are greatly appreciated! :)
John
 
John,
Can this stuff be shipped 2nd day priority mail? How do you collect it? I am concerned that there is some substrate left on the roots and not cleanly washed off. From what you said it grows pretty good. Do you have any pictures that you can post? I have sea grass in both of my tanks and thriving. I am looking for some new addtions to increase diversity. Thanks for coming on.

Joe
 
TURTLE GRASS SALTWATER PLANTS

TURTLE GRASS SALTWATER PLANTS

Joe, Grumpy Vet and Anyone else interested,
The Turtle grass can be shipped via two transportation. However, I will not use USPS ever again. All my shipping is done through UPS. There is a very long list of very good reasons why I use UPS. The turtle grass will be fine in good weather for at least four days while in transit. Currently I only have a couple of plants in stock(the ones that were suffering). I will be getting more in about two weeks.
If you go to our site and view the live products page, there is a picture that represents very well what the turtle grass looks like. It is quite clean and contains as many roots as nessecary to grow. If you are currently growing sea grasses, then turtle grass will be easy for you. I have had a hard time keeping shoal grass living in my holding tanks. The turtle grass seems to be very hardy. It requires(supposedly) specific gravity of at least 1.020, and will probably grow much faster with good strong full spectrum lights.
Feel free to ask anything and visit our site often as we are growing!
:D
 
Florida Pets, do you sand the plants "bare root", or do you keep some of the good silty muck and ship it along with them?
 
Thanks John.

I think I'll probably wait for the new batch. I'll have to check back w/ you on that.....or if you think about it, drop me a line - when you get some in and I'll place an order and make sure to tack on enough stuff to make it worth your time.

Interesting information - I think this will really make the tank.
 
John,
Me too. Please send me an e-mail when the new grass comes in. joekelley@pacbell.net

The weather is pretty cold out there. Does UPS have a 2 day service? Perhaps your packaging plus heat packs could further the sucessfull shipping? I look forward to hearing from you.

Joe

:D
 
General info on turtle grass?

General info on turtle grass?

Could anyone direct me to any online resources concerning how to set up a turtle grass tank or reccomend any good texts besides dynamic aquaria. IM very interested attempting to set up a dedicated turtle grass tank with grass bed critters.
 
I have had success growing turtle grass in my reef/seagrass aquarium at Augsburg College (http://www.augsburg.edu/biology....yes, the photos of my reef system are now several years old and need to be updated!). Here are some exerpts from an e-mail I sent to the New England Aquarium about 3 years ago when they asked me for advice on growing seagrasses in aquaria (they were about to set up a really large seagrass tank at the time):


Here are some thoughts regarding captive seagrass husbandry. Most of my advice
is based on anecdotal evidence from my reef/seagrass system. Also, I don't
know what you already know about seagrasses, seagrass communities, or reef
aquarium husbandry, so please don't be offended if I've included some basic
info that you already know well!

<snip...some no longer relevant information about sources was here>

As long as I'm on the topic of sources, another source might be Gulf Specimens
(in Pancea, Fl...they are in northern Fl on the gulf
side...they have a web site that you could probably find in a web search if
you are not already familiar with them). They list turtle
grass in their catalog. I think they normally collect only leaves so folks
can look at the diverse epibiont communities, but I'd bet you could get them
to ship you whole "short shoots" (seagrass lingo for the short vertical shoots
with leaves that grow up from the long horizonatal rhizomes), or even better,
some short shoots still attached to sections of rhizome. Short shoots with no
rhizome will grow (this is how I started out), but I'd bet you'll get your
plants established faster if they have some rhizome still present. My short
shoots took a while to really get going well.

I got Augsburg's turtlegrass from a collector in the Keys. <rest of details deleted...no longer relevant>

Another possible source might be Inland Aquatics, in Terre Haute Indiana (I
have links to this company's web site on my web site). I believe thay have
turtle grass growing, and have even listed it for sale at times, though Morgan
Lidster (the owner) tells me his turtle grass doesn't grow all that well for
him (he was amazed by how good the stuff in my tank looked). I have found
Morgan and Inland Aquatics to be great to deal with, and Morgan is very
knowledgeable and skilled in setting up and managing closed system marine
systems.

I'd offer you some of ours, though the few shoots I could spare would not
stock your display very effectively!

OK, now about how to grow the stuff. First of all, a few words about how it
grows in the wild. In the wild, turtle grass generally only grows where there
is a relatively deep buildup of very fine sediment (the other main seagrasses
in the area, manatee grass and shoal grass, neither of which has lasted long
term in my aquaria (don't know why they didn't last), have slightly different
preferences). When one digs up shoots and rhizomes, you are typically digging
into smelly anaerobic regions of sediment. Also, turtle grass is generally
found growing in relatively shallow water where light intensities from the
tropical sun (or I suppose subtropical in the Keys) are quite high. There is
often quite a bit of water motion due to tidal flow or due to rough water on
windy days, though in some areas and at some times (e.g. high or low tide on
calm days), the water flow in seagrass beds can be minimal.

I have been growing turtle grass for about 4 or 5 years now. The first time I
tried this was in a 20 gallon "reef tank on a tight budget" set up with a few
inches of coral gravel in a west window in a lab. These turtle grass short
shoots would photosynthsize rapidly (streams of oxygen bubbles would emanate
from them, just as in the wild) when they recieved direct sun (tank lighting
otherwise was minimal). I had some leaf growth, and one shoot even started to
develop a bit of a rhizome, but as we went into the predominantly cloudy,
short days of winter all growth stopped and the plants gradually died. The
likely moral from this example....turtle grass needs lots of light!

The roughly 60 gallon seagrass tank set up subsequent to the 20 gallon tank
mentioned above is the tank you see on my web site. The substrate is roughly
4 to 6 inches (I'd have a deeper sand bed if i were doing this over again) of
fine oolitic sand (CaribSea brand), and the tank is illuminated by a 5500 K
400W metal halide with a dimpled aluminum reflector (I think there might be
some other name for such reflectors?). The fixture also has 2 28 w
powercompact actinic bulbs, which I suspect are fairly irrelevant for the
turtle grass. This seagrass tank is hooked up to our reef tank, and the whole
system is currently filtered by and algal turf scrubber (from Inland
Aquatics). You can read about the history of our system on my web site, in
particular the fact that initially I was using a protein skimmer and had some
serious algal problems (due to overfeeding) that persisted until I switched to
the algal turf scrubber. During this initial turbulent period of the system
the turtle grass didn't grow all that much (though possibly a lot of root and
rhizome growth was taking place?), and at about the time i set up the algal
turf scrubber it seemed to be declining and I was afraid i was going to lose
it. However, a month or so after the turf scrubber had cured the tank's algae
problems, the turtle grass started growing really well. This could perhpas be
due to the influence of the algale turf scrubber on the system, but the rapid
improvement in growth also coincided with me starting to use a mixed trace
element supplement (Biotrace, purchased from Inland Aquatics). My suspicion
is that the iron in the Biotrace might have been responsible, but this is
really just a guess.

If I were setting up a large turtle grass display, I would set it up as though
it was a reef system for growing corals, except of course that the live rock
that contributes so much to the biological stability and water quality
maintenance in reef systems would need to be in a large sump (or perhaps in an
attached reef system). I see managing this as though it is a reef system as
being important in several respects. First, the intese lighting needed to
keep the turtle grass happy and growing will create horrible algae problems
unless you have pretty pristine water with very low, pretty much undetectable
levels of major macronutrients such as nitrates and phosphates. Secondly, if
you want to have a realistic looking slice of a turtle grass community, you
are going to want to make the various epibiotic coralline algae that live on
wild turtle grass happy, and you'd probably want to include in your system
various calcareous green algae like Halimeda opuntia, Halimeda incrassata,
Halimeda monile, Penicillis sp, Udotea sp, etc. that are characteristic of
turtle grass communities. These coralline red and calcareous green algae will
need the high calcium and alkalinity levels that one typically strives for in
a reef tank for corals.

If I were doing this, I think I'd want more light than I have on my seagrass
tank now. For my current system, possibly the use of one of the high quality
polished aluminum reflectors (e.g., the Spyder light reflector) would do it,
or maybe I'd even try a 1000w metal halide. On your presumably much larger
system I think you are going to want some pretty powerful lighting, and you'll
need to make sure the lights are relatively close to the water, and you'll not
want to have a really deep tank (personally, I would not exceed 3 feet of
depth). Yes, our turtle grass grows well with its current lighting (including
good rhizome growth and production of new short shoots), but it is taller than
any wild turtle grass I have seen and the blades are narrower than a lot of
wild turtle grass. This suggests to me that we have a bit of etiolation.
Also, my impression has been that the Udotea, Penicillis, Avrainviella
(spelling?), and certain other macroalgae I have grown in this tank have been
etiolated as well, some species severely etiolated (and they eventually died
out...though who knows, maybe this was some sort of nutrient or trace element
issue instead???).

This overly elongated growth form of my turtle grass might in part be due to
water flow issues though, since the shoots that have grown up after the
addition of an additional large powerhead have been shorter and more natural
looking. At any rate, you are going to want to have some decent water
movement in this tank. Though I wouldn't normally expect to see waves
crashing on a real seagrass bed, I think the back and forth water motion
created by a dump bucket style wavemaker (e.g., like the algal turf scrubber
unit we have on our reef tank) would be beneficial to the health of the
system. If you want to make your display really cool, I'd think simulated
tidal flow (changing directions according to time of day) would be cool and
also pretty useful. Regardless of how this is set up, you need water
movement, and you need it to be fluctuating somehow so that you don't end up
with dead spots where detritus will accumulate. Proper water flow will also
be essential to some of the other creatures (Condylactis or Bartholomea
anemones, etc.) that you might want to keep in your seagrass tank.

You are also going to want to promote the development of a good, healthy "live
sand" bed, with lots of little worms and other critters. Most reef aquarium
experts agree these days that this is critical for the health and well being
of reef aquaria. Inland Aquatics could provide you with starters of a variety
of sand bed creatures (e.g. terrebellid worms, etc) that reproduce in their
systems (incontrast, some wild collected critters do not last long, for
whatever reason), but you also would probably want to start out with a certain
proportion of wild-collected "live sand" to get your sand bed community off to
a good start.

Also, if I were doing this (actually, I HAVE been contemplating a 500-1000
gallon reef and a connected 300-500 gallon seagrass tank if we can get the
funding), I'd want to include a number of the other organisms characteristic
of seagrass beds. This might include the algae and anemones mentioned above,
as well as queen conchs (captive propageted ones are available), silversides
and sheepshead minnows (might not be compatible with the anemones, if you
catch my drift!), Pederson's cleaning shrimp (which hang out on the anemones),
the snapping shrimp that live with the Bartholomea, brittle stars in
abundance, and others. I would NOT put horseshoe crabs in this display unless
the display was huge, since they would eat up the critters important to your
live sand bed. There are a number of sponges that would probably do well too,
including chicken liver sponges (which often are found on turtle grass
blades). If you are lucky, you might be able to get some of the red
macroalgae to grow long-term as well. Incidentally, I have not been very
successful in maintaining very many of the turtle grass epibionts other than
certain coralline algae, though if you have a much larger system you might
have better success (?).

If you have carefully protected overflows (i.e. behind a large-area screen
partition) and if your water flow patterns don't toss them around too much,
Cassiopea jellyfish would do well, especially if you feed live baby brine or
have abundant mysids, etc. reproducing in the system (though if you have many
large anemones, the jellyfish might tend to get injured (or eaten??) by
occassional contact). If adequately fed, I'm told that Cassiopea will even
reproduce and can even become pests in aquaria.

Also, I would be sure to include Caulerpa paspaloides, which is common in
seagrass areas in the Keys, and is an absolutely spectacular Caulerpa species
in my opinion. It gets too big for me to manage in my system ( eventually
gave up on it because it was shading things to much), but in a larger tank it
would be wonderful.

Finally, if you have the good water quality I think you'll need anyway, some
of the stony corals and gorgonians found in nearshore waters would be nice
additions, though I don't know if you can legally get some of them. Gulf
Specimens lists a few (they have a permit that allows their collection for
educational purposes). Alternatively, you could use ecological analogues from
the IndoPacific. For example, we have a green Montipora digitata growing in
our seagrass tank (loose on the sand) that is very reminiscent of the way one
of the porites corals found in nearshore waters often grows loose on the
sediment in the Fl. Keys.

Well, this is probably more than you were expecting...I guess I got a bit
carried away here (I guess I'm a little jealous of your opportunity to set up
a display like this!). I'm not sure if I covered everything I planned to
mention, but I need to call it quits for now.

Let me know if I can be of any more assistance,or if I left out any critical
issues that you wnted to know about.

Bill

P.S. Though turtle grass can grow fairly fast when it is happy with its
conditions, don't expect it to spread in the speedy way that the superficially
similar freshwater Vallisneria does. Turtle grass has big tough rhizomes and
very substantial leaves, and these take a bit longer to grow and spread.
 
Oops...the link should have been http://www.augsburg.edu/biology

Also, summarizing the critical points from the above (which was written with a really large public display in mind)...

1. Turtle grass needs lots of light....in my experience, directly under a 400 w metal halide is fine, though my impression is that the plants would actually like even more light. In my experience, lots of light is really critical.

2. Turtle grass needs a good sand bed. Use fine sand.

3. Also, since writing the e-mail experpted above, I have come to conclude that trace element additions are essential. Biotrace (from Inland Aquatics) works well. Probably the large amount of iron in biotrace is what is important, but one of the people in my local reef club who is growing turtle grass I gave him has found that iron additions alone do not seem to be adequate. Regular additions of Biotrace maintain good growth, in both his tank and mine, but iron additions alone did not work for him.

4. Also, though most animals do not eat turtlegrass, some fish do (and so do urchins, which can plow through turtle gras in no time at all!). Beware! I was given a red sea purple tang and a foxface rabbitfish a few years ago. The only place to put them initially was my seagrass tank. They mowed down my thriving seagrass bed in a month or so before I had a tank set up to move them to, and they stayed in the tank for a few months. The turtle grass did not recover, and I'm now working on the very slow process of getting some new turtle grass established in the tank. Turtle grass can be really slow at first (I think it takes a while initially developing its substantial root system and rhizomes?), and it seems to not do very well for me until it gets a few tall leaves up at the surface really close to the light. Once well established though, with leaves reaching to the surface, and with at least weekly Biotrace additions, it can grow and spread quite well (as you can see in my tank photos on the web).

I hope this helps.

Bill
 
By the way...I and my friend in my local reef club have found that when we have stopped the Biotrace additions (e.g. for a month or two???...I forget the exact time periods here) our turtle grass has stopped growing and the plants have slowly lost their leaves. Resuming the Biotrace obviously and quickly reversed this trend on several occassions, with resumption of growth visible within a week or so.
 
Bill. Nice to see you posting on RC again. Your update on the seagrass tank and its requirements is excellent. You probably have more experience with turtle grass than anyone else.

I will have to keep trace elements in mind when I finally add a seagrass tank to my system.

I was thinking of seahorses and pipefish in the system, but with the water flow requirement you mention I don't know if I could include them.

Fred.
 
Actually, that big writeup about turtle grass that I posted above was written with a really big public display in mind (I didn't know how much the person who had e-mailed me from the New England Aquarium already knew about reef-type systems, so I was sort of trying to cover all the bases when I wrote that). I'm really not so sure that you need lots of flow for turtle grass to stay healthy. I think the big things are lots of light, deep sand bed (using very fine sand.....this is definitely a requirement in the wild, but I honestly have not experimented with turtle grass in other sorts of sand beds in aquaria), and, it seems (based on anectdotal evidence), trace element additions (with Biotrace being the only supplement I and my aquaintances have tried so far that has worked reliably to keep it growing well). And, as mentioned above, I think you are going to want reef tank-like water quality to avoid algae problems given the high light intensisties.

I think it would probably work out fine to have gentle flow and keep seahorses and pipefish in the tank (assuming you can give those fish adequate nutrition...but that is another matter).
 
Thanks for the reply Bill. Slow flow is good news.

This is my dream tank I am designing. It would be located in a greenhouse so light intensity would not be as much of an issue.

I would be looking at between 500 adn 800 gallons total volume with half being the seagrass bed (maybe a mangrove or two just for the cool roots).

As far as seahorse nutrition, there are captive bred available that will eat frozen mysis.

Fred.
 
I grow seagrasses and they do fine under 110w of PC lighting on a 2ft tank.
I used plain old sub sand for concrete, about 2.50$ for 50lbs which happens to be aragonite sand here in Florida. I think a deep substrate is the key and is also a good idea for most systems with plants, fresh, brackish or salt.
I waited awhile(3 months) so the substrate matured well before planting.
Keeping some fast growers and herbivores in with them will prevent nuisance algae.

There's three main species of seagrasses down here. Don't move them after planting! They don't like that! They do like current.

Go for good shipping on any macro algae or Seagrass. Faster is better. Your vendor is wise not to trust USPS, they are weird and have been for a few years now. UPS 2nd day air, Fed ex etc is the way to go.

I collect down near Long Key 2-3x a year. There's about 50-75 species of macros around and 3 species or so of Seagrass.
Folks might want tpo con the kids and spouse into coming, you can go to Disney and then go down and collect or see the reefs and macro/seagrass beds.

A method that folks here might be interested in is using agar enriched nutrient cubes to add under their plants to increase growth. I dose the water column to increase plant growth with NO3 and PO4, but I have few fish(And a fair amount of snails, shrimp and slugs), a few little fish that somehow made in on the macro's and plants. But for folks more timid may find the the substrate more to their liking. Agar diffuses nutrients slowly out at a steady rate. This might help folks keep their water column nutrient poor while still supplying enough nutrients for good growth. In my macro algae tank I get little in the way of nusiance blooms of other algae, the macro's simply grow and dominate the system. I did get some diatoms initially on the glass etc but not on the plants. Most often I don't get any algae blooms except for the macro's like Ulva, Caulerpa or Laurencia. The substrate builds up nutrients should do better with time as it stabilizes.
A vote for mysis + captive seahorses. You can try and catch mysis or other shrimps out in ponds/lakes early in the morning and feed the seahorses live then slowly ween them onto the frozen. It's a job, but they do well if you can get them on frozen food. If you can buy them already eating frozen, do it.

Regards,
Tom Barr
 
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