Unknown Bacterial Infection

[gummi]

Here goes:

I have a 65 gal (48X18) with 2 percula clowns and a yellow tang. After introducting some more bali live rock and the yellow tang, I soon noticed white spots on my small clown. I immediately thoght "Ich."

Soon after the yellow tang got the white spots (most likely Ich). I started treating the tank with reef-safe medicine called Medic by a Canadian company called PolypLabs...supposed to be the best and safest medication. 3-4 days later, the small clownfish died. 2 days later the yellow tang developed brown/red spots around his eyes and gills and died. Now, the last clown has the spots. Although still eating I'm worried.

For a healthy, new, system being treated with Medic I would assume that what's in my tank is worse than Ich... my marine mentor thinks that it's some type of nasty bacterial infection. Here are my questions:

1. Is this just ich or something worse?
2. Would this come in with my tang or maybe the rock?
3. Short of running the system with just my inverts and no fish (if my last fish dies) for 6 weeks, anything else I can do?
4. Anyone familiar with this?
5. Comments?

I've learned my lesson and will now quarantine...
I'm discouraged as I spend 10 months reading and researching before I even started. I did my best to buy all of the best equipment that money could buy and moved slow to setup the right system.... I only buy fish from clean reputable stores that are MAC certified and knowledgable... I guess these things just happen sometimes.

Info:
65 gallon long, 20 gallon sump
Euroreef RS100 skimmer
mini-fuge w/5lbs live sand
80lbs haitian lettuce rock
10lbs premium bali LR
2in seafloor special sand bed
Sunlight Supply TEK light 4X54
Eheim 1260 return

Livestock: 1 pecula clown, 2 cleaner shrimp, 10 trochus snails, 3 conch, 1 mexican turbo snail, 5 nassarius snails
Coral: 1 sun polyp

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 5 - 10 (will be lower now that fish are gone)
Calcium: 380 - 400
dKH: 10
Ph: 8.2
Temp: 81
Salinity: 1.025

 

[kevin2000]

My 02

There are no products that are considered consistently effective against ich that are "reef safe" .. those products are long on marketing BS and short on product development.

I suggest you setup a QT for your remaining fish ... treat that fish with either hyposalinity (SG of 1.009) or copper. If you keep your ST without fish for about 5 weeks the ich within that system will die off since Ich needs a fish to pepetuate their life cycle.

Bacterial infections are sometimes the result of the open wounds that ich create when they leave the fish ... if your remaining fish has a bacterial infection you can always use an antibiotic in the QT .. won't interfere with hypo.

Here's a link discussing ich ... in the treatment section you will find other links on how to setup a QT, how to treat with hyposalinity or copper (cupramine)

http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/marineich.html

 

[gummi]

Amyloodinium possibly. There is a post on another board where someone got the exact same thing after adding some new LR (as I did). I think that could be it....

 

[Sk8r]

That's what I'm thinking, amyloodinium.

Bacterial infections come in two sorts, I dimly recall from my bio days: gram negative and gram positive [rated by how they stain]. Many antibiotics are specific to one or the other type. A broad-spectrum antibiotic [I think Maracyn is such] is supposed to deal with either.

 

[gummi]

Is amyloodinium the same as velvet?

I hear that you can get it in your tank by adding LR. Can you quarantine/treat LR?

My medication says that it treats velvet: http://www.polyplab.com/medic.html

 

[kevin2000]

Your product also says its effective against ich .. thats marketing bull crap .. thought you worked in marketing?

 

[gummi]

Yes, I do work in Marketing...what does that have to do with anything? Why can't it treat both? Why is hat bull crap?

 

[billsreef]

"Active Ingredients: Crystallized Peroxide Salts."

By the time you get enough peroxide into a tank to affect protozoans, you'll be doing harm to corals and the slime coat of the fish. The idea of peroxides being able to attack the attached stage (trophont) that is buried in the fishes skin without oxidizing away the slime coat is ludicrous at best. So far any product I've seen that claims "reef safe" and "cures ich" as fallen very short of the "cure ich" part. Reef Safe parasite cures are the holy grail of the reef aquarist, and have yet to be found. Yet plenty of people market them and sell them to unsuspecting aquarist

If you want to know what truly and reliably works, check out that link that kevin2000 posted. Curing ich invovles work, anything that promises you such miracles as "reef safe cure" is snake oil.

 

[gummi]

I think this product is made to kill the free-swimming stage of Ich thus dosing early in the morning and late at night. Either way, I can't argue the effectiveness of this product as I'm new to the hobby, new to ich, and you are obviously much better versed in this than me. I'll have a look at that other post.

I know that hyposalinity may work as well as copper treatments. I'll continue to research I guess.

I just bought the best reef-safe remedy that I could find - but with no results.

 

[billsreef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10271047#post10271047 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gummi
I just bought the best reef-safe remedy that I could find - but with no results.

The "no results" is the typical outcome with all of the so called "reef safe" remedy's out there. Sadly those snake oil remedy's continue to exist and thrive because they a make a promise that everyone wants to believe. They only thing they effectively do is transfer money from your wallet to theirs.

 

[gummi]

Ok, that said I've come home to see my last clownfish dead.
I guess it's 4 - 6 weeks without fish to ensure the parasite is dead...

Which spawns 3 more questions:

1. Do I need to feed my 2 cleaner shrimp/cleanup crew somehow? I still need to feed my sun polyp so i assume they can eat some of the cyclopeze in the water.

2. Would it be a good idea to buy 2 or 3 fish that I want NOW, quarantine them, and when the tank is ready/quarntine period is over I can add them?

3. Can you quarantine LR? If so, for how long?

 

[billsreef]

The shrimp and clean up crew will do fine if you throw a little food at them when you feed your sun polyps. As for getting some new fish and placing them in QT now while the tank sits fishless for 4-6 weeks, by all means LR can also be QT'd, just leave it in a tub of SW with a powerhead for 4-6 weeks.

 

[onsan]

sorry Bill, but you're wrong about peroxide.
many studies prove it's effectives against protozoans, the USFDA has approved it as being effective and safe for human consumption.
although the protozoan resides under the epithelial layer, the skin is damaged by the protozoans presence and allows for the ingress of H2O2.
correct dosages are critical as with any treatment.
i have used it extensively for many years and have conducted my own tests on it with corallimorphs (which dosages up 100ppm were fine).
However like you said, there is no reef safe product. for a treatment to be effective on protozoans it will also effect bacteria.