Unsuccessful with SPS corals. :(

[MHG]

when you say brown out is it dark brown, almost rust colored or fading into a tan light brown? The dark brown is typically light related. If someone local, perhaps your local club has a PAR meter for you to borrow, that can help answer that question. PAR is not everything but if its like 80 PAR and it should be 250-500 then there is your answer...


The lighter brown is starvation, but your nitrates look good so I am thinking lighting...

 

[Siebo]

You also need to get that skimmer dialed in. Not running a skimmer is a no no for sps. As for ditrus in the sump put a small power head down there to stir it up and your skimmer should do the rest. When you say browning out are they turning white first on the tips and then brown? Alk or temp swings cause this in many cases

 

[DeepThought]

In my experience feeding pellets = more wasted food = more phosphate. I use New Life Spectrum though, so I have no idea if the food source has more phosphate than others but considering how many people use it successfully, I doubt it. When I feed flake, my fish usually get a lot more of it and less goes to waste.

Also Seachem phosguard is an aluminum based phosphate remover which means that you'll have elevated levels of aluminum with continuous use.

I would suggest GFO, but small amounts at a time so as not to strip the water too fast of PO4 which would stress out SPS.

Definitely also get yourself a PO4 test kit, I use the ELOS one, does the job but is a bit pricey.

I used to feed frozen food, but I had a hard time regulating the amount. I would just break off a chunk of it and feed it, but I found it so... inaccurate. That's why I switched back to flake foods and have not had a problem with cyano or hair algae since.

Lights could be the issue of browning. But monti's and other easier sps corals should just brown and shouldn't die. Even most acro's will just brown. When they brown and die i would say something different then just lighting is going on.

Also i would not change all at once, that way you'll never know what fixed the problem.

Good LED's are fine for sps, great even, just be carefull with the amount of lighting.

The corals were getting much darker brown for quite a while, and one millipora was starting to show signs of turning a dark green. But, I moved a bunch of stuff around my tank and I guess I spiked my nitrate/phosphate levels because some of the sps corals started turning light brown. I'll admit that a few were buried in sand for a few days before I discovered they were missing. lol

I know light acclimation to LEDs can be difficult, but I think I have found a pretty good thread and a good mentor for those ReefBreeder LEDs that I want to buy. So, I think upgrading the light will definitely be a significant factor in the success at this point. I'm right at $220 right now - and only have $280 to go before I can order that reefbreeder light that I want.

when you say brown out is it dark brown, almost rust colored or fading into a tan light brown? The dark brown is typically light related. If someone local, perhaps your local club has a PAR meter for you to borrow, that can help answer that question. PAR is not everything but if its like 80 PAR and it should be 250-500 then there is your answer...


The lighter brown is starvation, but your nitrates look good so I am thinking lighting...

Lighter brown = starvation or alkalinity swings? It could be alkalinity swings, I didn't measure once a couple weeks ago and just poured into the sump what I imagined was 12 oz. I checked the next day and was right at where I wanted my alkalinity to be. I don't know if I might have added it too quickly though.

SHould I turn my calcium reactor back on any time soon and start slowly calibrating it? My tank is using roughly 40ppm calcium and 2 mEQ/L every week. Is that enough to justify turning on the calcium reactor?

You also need to get that skimmer dialed in. Not running a skimmer is a no no for sps. As for ditrus in the sump put a small power head down there to stir it up and your skimmer should do the rest. When you say browning out are they turning white first on the tips and then brown? Alk or temp swings cause this in many cases

I JUST closed a deal on a new used skimmer. I'm downgrading my Reef Octopus Diablo XS160 cone skimmer to a Reef Octopus NWB-110 skimmer. I feel like this trade will allow the new skimmer to be even more efficient than my old one. I think my old one is just way too oversized for my tank and is not skimming correctly because the mouth on the skimmer is way too big. In any case, I'm happy with the switch.

Thank you for telling me about the powerhead. Never thought of that. Good deal.

 

[franklypre]

Tuna you have no idea what you are talking about on the phosgaurd or ELos pellets, please research before you ASSume because I don't appreciate you attempting to make me out that way. DT man I would go ahead and get one of the value fixtures if, unless the fancy controllability really matters to you. Buy one now and get another later, there are reasons such as center braces, more power, etc. Get that detritus out with either a canister filter or total removal and cleaning of the sump, no need for phyto until you have a packed tank, clean the frozen food if you insist on feeding it.

 

[DeepThought]

Tuna you have no idea what you are talking about on the phosgaurd or ELos pellets, please research before you ASSume because I don't appreciate you attempting to make me out that way. DT man I would go ahead and get one of the value fixtures if, unless the fancy controllability really matters to you. Buy one now and get another later, there are reasons such as center braces, more power, etc. Get that detritus out with either a canister filter or total removal and cleaning of the sump, no need for phyto until you have a packed tank, clean the frozen food if you insist on feeding it.

Thank you for the clarification, Franklypre. I like the controlability of the photon series from reefbreeders. I have heard that if you buy the value fixtures at different times, you get different Bins and your colors would be slightly off from one another. I like the photon48 because it covers the entire tank and it is controllable dimming.

I might try the powerhead thing in the sump first before I completely remove it. I have some live rock in the sump that I think I'm going to clean and put in the display tank.

I hear yah on the phyto, and no, I'm not feeding any frozen food anymore.

 

[franklypre]

Just want to make sure you're 100% on the control idea, the value can be adjusted to different % of color as well, you just have to do it manually via pot dimmers. If you have a middle brace you can tilt the value fixture toward the middle and eliminate the shadowing effect. If you get the photon you may want to talk to Logan about using different optics towards the end to eliminate the overspill.

 

[DeepThought]

Thank you for the additional information. I appreciate it.

I Want the photon series because of the control ability. I have an Apex Jr. that has the potential to control lights, maybe not the value fixtures, but I do have that ability. The thing I like about the photons is that they can be programmed to be increased and decreased at half hour to one our intervals. I like that effect.

I was thinking about getting 90 degree optics on the edges, to try to catch some overspill. The only thing that concerns me is that these fixtures are only hangable - they do not have legs on them. I don't have the ability to hang these lights over my tank.


Can anyone answer if it is time to turn the calcium reactor back online or not? My calcium is dropping roughly 40ppm per week and my alkalinity is dropping about 2 mEQ/L per week.

 

[i Tuna]

Tuna you have no idea what you are talking about on the phosgaurd or ELos pellets, please research before you ASSume because I don't appreciate you attempting to make me out that way. DT man I would go ahead and get one of the value fixtures if, unless the fancy controllability really matters to you. Buy one now and get another later, there are reasons such as center braces, more power, etc. Get that detritus out with either a canister filter or total removal and cleaning of the sump, no need for phyto until you have a packed tank, clean the frozen food if you insist on feeding it.

If you assume I don't know what I'm talking about then kindly explain what I said was false and correct me. Don't simply make me out to be ignorant. If anything, your personal attacks are not doing the forums any justice.

Not to mention if you paid attention to my wording with the pellets, I was simply adding in my experience of using pellet food, and I left room for error and claimed that I may be wrong.

Think before you attack someone for no obvious reason >.>

The phosguard part, I think I read from an article on the reefkeeping website or in the Reef Chemistry forum, I'll look through it again and link it when I'm out of work.

 

[i Tuna]

Found the article I read relating to Phosguard leaching aluminum.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/7/chemistry

If you have any counter argument, or any evidence that led you to believe that I "have no idea what [I am] talking about" then I would be glad to listen and learn something new

 

[franklypre]

http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/PhosGuard.html
pellets only cause rises in anything if you over feed, like most things in this hobby reading the instructions and following them are important. I merely responded to the attitude that was recieved IMO, if I hurt your feelings I do apologize. I use the stuff myself or wouldn't suggest it, it does irritate me when I attempt to help/educate another reefer and somebody comes in after reading one article and trashes it. There is a big difference between reading something and actually using/testing the product.

 

[i Tuna]

http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/PhosGuard.html
pellets only cause rises in anything if you over feed, like most things in this hobby reading the instructions and following them are important. I merely responded to the attitude that was recieved IMO, if I hurt your feelings I do apologize. I use the stuff myself or wouldn't suggest it, it does irritate me when I attempt to help/educate another reefer and somebody comes in after reading one article and trashes it. There is a big difference between reading something and actually using/testing the product.

I don't over feed. In my experience when feeding pellets in my aquarium, during the feeding frenzy of fish trying to get as many as they can, some end up getting pushed around by the water and into dead zones, where they stay and decay. I'm not saying this is an issue with everyone, it has simply been an issue with me.

The attitude you received was assumed. I was only giving my opinion and knowledge from research I have done. There was no need for you to be defensive, I wasn't attacking you.

I have used phosguard before, again you're assuming. I use to use it before converting to GFO. Did I have issues with it? No. However I read the article and thought it was better to be safe than sorry in terms of possible aluminum buildup in my reef.

Hope this clears things up.

 

[akitareefer]

Anyone have an answer?

Can anyone answer if it is time to turn the calcium reactor back online or not? My calcium is dropping roughly 40ppm per week and my alkalinity is dropping about 2 mEQ/L per week.

 

[DeepThought]

Thank you for continuing the conversation, I really appreciate everyones effort to help. Trust me, I do my own research and do not rely on anyone's personal opinion without confirming it with another source. I have 7 years of college behind me, I'm pretty good like that.

I'm currently battling temperature issues while my air conditioner gets fixed. Hopefully it will be fixed by Monday. (tomorrow). That's my current problem. I need to get a couple of fans going on the system as soon as I can.

I saved enough money for the photon 48. I re-tested my water levels and everything checked out pretty good. I haven't dosed any more two part solutions in a week or so so I can measure how much is actually being used. Apparently, with my APEX kicking off my lights with the aquarium temp getting up past 82*F (it's currently almost 87*F.) my tank probably isn't going to use a whole lot of calcium and alkalinity this week.

My refugium is starting to grow some macroalgae, though. What little C. racemosa that was leftover from the heat-lamp incident is growing back full force. I'm happy about that. My skimmer is doing pretty well, and I re-worked my filtration system so that it collects more detritus.

I have increased my mechanical filtration power and I will be replacing the pad once a week so that it doesn't soil my water quality by keeping it in there too long. I also added a powerhead to my sump to start blowing some detritus around. I cleaned out a bunch of it not long ago - and a lot of it settled in the tank itself, so I'm going to have to collect some water for a large water change and take a small powerhead to the rocks and siphon out as much as I can.

There is a man that is bringing me a free reef ready 40g breeder tank that I am considering using as a saltwater mixing container and extra water volume (like a water reservoir) to the system. If I do that, I will have to replace my current sump with a larger one - like a 55g or a 40g breeder next to my tank in the side cabinet. Just a lot to do.



Most of the consensus on here was that my lights are inadequate. I'm not so sure, honestly. I think my nutrient levels are really high - my water parameters are a little unstable (like my temp and salinity) and my lights are also inadequate. It's just a combination of everything at this point. But, now that I know there is a few things wrong, maybe I can take steps to correct it.

 

[Biocubehqi]

You will have to ge the detrius off the rocks regularly... I do it every water change or when I'm in the tank in general... I use a turkey baster, a big one. This way I can do it without disturbing corals or sand...

I would also get a par meter for a local cob member or borrow one from a LFS and find that out, without that you are driving blind! It will also be useful in installing the LEDs. To find the right height and percentage to star out at so you don't burn corals!

 

[stevek480]

I read that someone was starting to make metal stands for the Photon lights that can sit on top of your tank. I'm not sure they did one for the 48" Photon yet though. I have 2 32's and am pretty happy so far; I also have an in-wall reef so it was easy to hang them from the ceiling. The hanging kit is pretty neat though, any way you could attach it to your ceiling? When/if you do get it, be sure to start the light at lower power and ramp up over weeks to acclimate.

 

[alazo1]

Anyone have any ideas how to clean a sump full of detritus out?

Wet dry vacuum. In order to not take too much water out, put a pvc reducer at the end of a hose. Reduce to a 1/2" pvc pipe.

Albert

 

[gar732]

I know probably no one will agree with me but I don't think lighting has anything to do with your problem unless the bulbs are old or you don't have good reflectors. I ran my 75 with a 4 bulb unit with ati bulbs for well over a year and had decent growth and good color and I have progression pics to prove it.

As far as the RB fixture they get great reviews and people seem to love them but I found they were too much on the red side for my taste. I would suggest if you haven't already seen one in person that you do before you buy. I have to say that their customer service is pretty good though, they were willing to swap a couple of the red LEDs out on my fixture to make it more to my taste. I just ended up going a different route though and sold my fixture.

I'm kind of in the same boat as you when it come to the sps, I down sized from a 75 to a 34 solana and have had nothing but problems. I've only lost a few corals but the rest are browned out and some are barely hanging on, I should have kept the 75, lol.

 

[DeepThought]

You will have to ge the detrius off the rocks regularly... I do it every water change or when I'm in the tank in general... I use a turkey baster, a big one. This way I can do it without disturbing corals or sand...

I would also get a par meter for a local cob member or borrow one from a LFS and find that out, without that you are driving blind! It will also be useful in installing the LEDs. To find the right height and percentage to star out at so you don't burn corals!

I haven't used my turkey baster in a long time. I also haven't done a water change on this tank in three months or so. LOL. ooopsie.

I'm working on a water change system right now. A 40g breeder hooked up to run for extra volume I'll also add a filter to the return line to add a little additional filtration. I'll stir everything up in the display for the sump filtration to catch and drain the display tank water to get more detritus out. Then I'll let the 40g breeder with old water drain into the display and then I'll mix new saltwater in the 40g breeder. Turn another valve or two once it is mixed and BOOM! fresh saltwater. Anyways, I guess it sounds better in my head than in practice? I don't know why no one else has done this....

I read that someone was starting to make metal stands for the Photon lights that can sit on top of your tank. I'm not sure they did one for the 48" Photon yet though. I have 2 32's and am pretty happy so far; I also have an in-wall reef so it was easy to hang them from the ceiling. The hanging kit is pretty neat though, any way you could attach it to your ceiling? When/if you do get it, be sure to start the light at lower power and ramp up over weeks to acclimate.

I was reading that too. I talked to Logan at ReefBreeders about it and he said that a "prototype" will be available for purchase in a few weeks for the Photon 48. I can not use the hanging kit that comes with this system. For one, I have tall ceilings and it won't come down enough and two - I live in a rental home. I Can't just put screws in the ceiling. lol Thanks for a word of warning on the acclimation. I've never had LEDs and I can't imagine how something so "underpowered" can put out so much PAR.

Wet dry vacuum. In order to not take too much water out, put a pvc reducer at the end of a hose. Reduce to a 1/2" pvc pipe.

Albert

Wow, cool. Never thought of that. I've been using my fingers and a powerhead for the time being. It's been working - since I have changed my mechanical filter scheme to something that filters much, much better.

I know probably no one will agree with me but I don't think lighting has anything to do with your problem unless the bulbs are old or you don't have good reflectors. I ran my 75 with a 4 bulb unit with ati bulbs for well over a year and had decent growth and good color and I have progression pics to prove it.

As far as the RB fixture they get great reviews and people seem to love them but I found they were too much on the red side for my taste. I would suggest if you haven't already seen one in person that you do before you buy. I have to say that their customer service is pretty good though, they were willing to swap a couple of the red LEDs out on my fixture to make it more to my taste. I just ended up going a different route though and sold my fixture.

I'm kind of in the same boat as you when it come to the sps, I down sized from a 75 to a 34 solana and have had nothing but problems. I've only lost a few corals but the rest are browned out and some are barely hanging on, I should have kept the 75, lol.

Well, I think that the light is part of the problem. My montipora capricornis is not browning out and is still orange/red. It's also in the upper 3/4 of the tank and gets a lot of light. Not direct light though - and most montipora species are also relatively "low" level light corals compared to acropora and seriatopora etc. I'm changing some stuff up in the tank and my refugium is back online and growing macro pretty good. I keep cleaning detritus out of the sump and it's almost completely clean now. I changed up my mechanical filtration so it catches more detritus before it enters the sump. I also added some carbon back to the system AND I'm fixing to get my phosphate reactor back online with fresh GFO.

After all of that, I should be able to grow SOME SPS.

BTW, I ordered the Photon 48 today. I got it with a 12k look.




I'm going to keep this thread going for the time being because I don't know if it's just the lights or if it's just the whole tank etc. I'm going to keep reporting on setbacks and problems as they arise. Seems like I get more responses on this thread then I do my build thread. heh.

 

[TylerHaworth]

You haven't done a water change in three months? You only dose once per week? You don't have any idea what your phosphates are?

I'm sorry if this is overly harsh, but no amount of fancy new equipment will overcome your complete lack of husbandry.

 

[dkeller_nc]

I also haven't done a water change on this tank in three months or so. LOL. ooopsie.

Deep: It's definitely possible to keep SPS corals in small tanks that are lit by fluorescents. The 20 nano I currently have is an example - there numerous species of SPS in the tank, and all grow like weeds for the most part.

But - I think most others on this forum would echo this thought - "oopsies" aren't permitted if you want to successfully keep SPS. Proper lighting, water chemistry and water flow are all important, of course, but stability is just as critical.

You really can't tolerate swings in salinity from 1.027 to 1.024 in ten minutes because you forgot to add evap makeup yesterday and are correcting the problem. (Please note: I'm not saying that you might've done this, I'm just using it as an example for the diligence required).

The 20 nano I speak of is decidedly low-tech; It's lit by (currently) 2 power compacts, each of 65 watts, the skimmer is a 25-year old design (the original Tunze model that Julian Sprung rather famously used on a 15 gallon in the 1980's), and the salinity, alkalinity, calcium and magnesium are all kept constant in a totally manual manner - with drip jugs. There are no chemical absorbants in this tank (i.e., no GFO nor carbon), no calcium reactor, pretty much no nothing other than a skimmer, heater, lights, and powerheads.

I guess what I'm getting at is that equipment that doesn't work correctly will be a definite problem, but equipment that is just a little different is highly unlikely to cause a radical change in your outcomes.

Granted, the drudgery of constant water tests, vacuuming detritus, doing frequent but very small water changes, spending an hour or more a day observing everything, changing out fluorescent bulbs after 6 months, etc... isn't nearly as much fun as upgrading tanks, lights, reactors and everything else. But it's the foundation of making the whole thing work - the higher-end equipment is largely a convenience that automates some of the tasks at hand.

This is what I would suggest: examine your photoperiod, the color temperature of your T5 HOs, not just the wattage output, the flow profile in your tank and how that flow is distributed, turn your skimmer back on, and do 5% water changes with saltwater that has been heated and aerated for at least 48 hours prior to use, and make a goal to have the salinity and all other parameters that you can measure & adjust not vary at all (at least within the measurement error of the test method) for at least a 2 month period.

It's boring as heck, I know, but fastidiousness is the key to success with the more difficult to keep animals.