thank 's to everyone who gave me their advice on how to cure ithis crap. so I choose to use vitamin c drops, garlic and keep my water perfect. as of tonight my tang and my dotty are both looking better. I feed everyone and they all ate(thank god) I am just going to let this run in course. I know I should QT but that would stress everyone out even more. so i am taking the natural way. crossing y fingers and saying a lot of prayers. oh yeah dave call me if you get a chance babes... thanks
update on the ich
- Thread starter Cruella
- Start date
Ken668
New member
I've actually found that garlic does help when going the "natural" route of treating Ich. It will not be a magic medicine that completely cures the Ich by itself. Although, it does help limit the number of Ich from reattaching to the host. Whether the smell/taste of the host is not pleasant for them or it boosts the immune system of the host, either way it does tend to help.
If you haven't already, take a look at this thread. Might give you some more insight.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=841978
If you haven't already, take a look at this thread. Might give you some more insight.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=841978
Had ich for a while - just the tang (for about 3-4 weeks). Tried garlic/selcon. Tang hated his food soaked in garlic. So I just made sure he had plenty of algae and meaty foods to eat (got him fattened up). The ich would go through its regular cycle, but eventually failed to return.
ick is always present in our reeftanks, it never "dies off" despite how hard we try to eradicate it. Fish just naturaly have to build up an immunity to it and once they do, it rarely bothers them unless something triggers a release of spores ( temp drop or rapid upswing of salinity)
this is a macro image magnified a billion times of what the ICK look like in the sandbed as they wait to be hatched.
http://static.flickr.com/33/35854402_32925a08de_m.jpg
http://static.flickr.com/33/35854402_32925a08de_m.jpg
fishtanker
New member
I don't really buy that Dave. If no fish becomes infected (the visible cysts we all know well) with Ich within any 4-6 week period the parasite's lifecycle has been broken. The lifecycle will not start again until the parasite is introduced back into the aquarium, via new additions. Thats the main reason for QT tanks.
xian
Premium Member
I think Dave is right the parasite has a dormant stage. It happens with other diseases such as viruses too. For example you can catch Herpes zoster (chicken pox) and be sick and then get better. Then for no known reason you can get shingles from the same virus. The virus never went away it just stayed dormant.
This might be a poor example but the Ich parasite is pretty hardy. I suscribe to the school of thought that ich shouldn't kill an otherwise healthy fish
This might be a poor example but the Ich parasite is pretty hardy. I suscribe to the school of thought that ich shouldn't kill an otherwise healthy fish
fishtanker
New member
That could be true however i don't think its all that common, i believe people like to fool themselves into thinking Ich is always present so why bother to QT.
As soon as the cyst falls off the host and hatches (4-6weeks) the free floating parasite has 24-48 hours to infect a host otherwise it will die. In colder water the hatching period can be longer. So i guess in very cold circumstances there could be a prolonged dormant stage.
As soon as the cyst falls off the host and hatches (4-6weeks) the free floating parasite has 24-48 hours to infect a host otherwise it will die. In colder water the hatching period can be longer. So i guess in very cold circumstances there could be a prolonged dormant stage.
see here is the thing too, with warm water, they stay dormant, but an influx of cold water can awaken the dormant cyst that are in the sand. I've had it happen before. Warm water speeds up their life cycles, but they don't allways "hatch".
IME a Drop in tempature usualy triggers them at around 65 or under.
Also if you have a fish who is ill with another ailment, Ick can attack from out of nowhere in a completely healthy tank. It is often times why you can add a "healthy" fish to your tank, and yet it catches ick once in the main tank, but all the other fish that exist in it already don't show any sign of the parasite and are not attacked. Ick becomes a problem when they are allowed to manifest themselves and reproduce in large numbers with a suitable "host" to attack.
Powder blue/ brown tangs and "small scaled" fishies are magnets for just such an event. " STRESS ICK" is termed such for just that reason
IME a Drop in tempature usualy triggers them at around 65 or under.
Also if you have a fish who is ill with another ailment, Ick can attack from out of nowhere in a completely healthy tank. It is often times why you can add a "healthy" fish to your tank, and yet it catches ick once in the main tank, but all the other fish that exist in it already don't show any sign of the parasite and are not attacked. Ick becomes a problem when they are allowed to manifest themselves and reproduce in large numbers with a suitable "host" to attack.
Powder blue/ brown tangs and "small scaled" fishies are magnets for just such an event. " STRESS ICK" is termed such for just that reason
xian
Premium Member
Here is part of an article by Trevor Jones, it seems to be well documented
Is "Ich" always present in our aquaria?
There is a widely held belief in the marine aquarium hobby that "Ich" is always present in our aquaria and this belief is often repeated on marine bulletin boards. There is much information in the scientific literature that contradicts this belief.
C. irritans is an obligate parasite (Burgess and Matthews, 1994; Dickerson and Dawe, 1995; Yoshinaga and Dickerson, 1994). Obligate means the parasite can not survive without infecting its host, in this case, fish. Theronts have been shown to die if a suitable host is not found within the required time. Yoshinaga and Dickerson (1994) found that few theronts (0.34%) were viable 12.5 hours after excystment and Burgess and Matthews (1994) found that no theronts were viable 18 hours after excystment. Colorni (1985) found that some excysted tomites (=theronts) were observed to be moving weekly after 48 hours. While the life span of the theronts appears variable, it is limited and all will die without finding a suitable host.
If an aquarium has no fish in it, and there are no additions of fish, or anything else that could be carrying trophonts, tomonts, tomites or theronts for a period of 6 weeks or longer, all parasites will have died. An aquarium such as this is an obvious exception to "Ich" always being present.
Many fish collected for marine aquariums will not be carrying "Ich". Incidence of C. irritans in wild fish varies widely and may be geographically related. Some authors have found few infected fish, if any, in the areas they have examined (Puerto Rico: Bunkley-Williams and Williams, 1994; southern California: Wilkie and Gordin, 1969) . Others have found that low levels of infection are not uncommon (e.g. southern Queensland; Diggles and Lester, 1996c). Keeping multiple fish in holding tanks and at aquarium stores increases the chances of a fish carrying "Ich" parasites, but it is still possible to acquire a fish that is not infected with "Ich".
If new fish are quarantined for at least 6 weeks, any parasites on the fish will have gone through a number of life cycles increasing the number of parasites present. In the majority of cases, the increase in parasite numbers will result in full blown infection and fish can be treated to remove the parasites. Hyposalinity has been demonstrated to break the life cycle of "Ich" (Cheung et al. 1979; Colorni, 1985) and fish correctly treated with hyposalinity will be free from "Ich". Any fish that do not show signs of infection after 6 weeks are very unlikely to be carrying any parasites.
If fish that are free from "Ich" (either because they were not originally infected or because they have been treated with hyposalinity) are added to an aquarium that is free from "Ich", the aquarium will stay free from "Ich" and be another exception to "Ich" always being present.
Burgess and Matthews (1994) were attempting to maintain a viable population of C. irritans which could be used in later studies. To maintain the parasite populations, they needed host fish in order for the trophonts to feed and continue the life cycle. Each host fish was only used once in a process of serial transition such that none of the hosts would die or develop an immunity. While the procedure worked very well and enabled them to maintain populations for some time, the viability of the populations decreased with time and none of the 7 isolates they used survived more than 34 cycles, around 10 to 11 months. They suggest this is due to senescence and aging in cell lines is well recognised in Ciliophora.
The presence of aging cell lines in C. irritans suggests that an aquarium that has been running for longer than 12 months without any additions is unlikely to have any surviving "Ich" parasites, yet another exception to "Ich" always being present.
Whilst "Ich" may be present in some aquaria, it is certainly not present in all aquaria. Through careful quarantining and treatment, it is very much possible to establish and maintain an "Ich" free aquarium.
That said this supports Dave's claim because as long as there is a fish living in the aquarium there is a potential for the parasite's life cycle to continue, even if it goes unnoticed by us. There is also evidence that fish develop immunity against the disease
Immunity
Innate Immunity
Innate immunity refers to the general response to an invading pathogen or parasite regardless of that pathogen or parasite encountered (Dickerson and Clark, 1996). This form of immunity does not rely on previous encounters and includes generalised reactions such as secretion of mucus, but may include specific host cell responses (acquired genetically).
While little formal study has been performed on innate immunity of marine fish to C. irritans, innate immunity of freshwater fish to I. multifiliis, both between and within host species suggests that the former may be possible. Collective anecdotal evidence from marine aquarists lends weight to the idea that some species, such as chaetodontids (butterflyfish) and acanthurids (surgeonfish and tangs) may be more prone to Marine "Ich" infections, whereas other species such as callionymids (dragonets) are not at all. Intraspecific differences in innate immunity would be much harder to detect through random observation.
Acquired Immunity
Acquired immunity occurs when the response is specific to the invading organism, which is recognised directly or through antigens (Dickerson and Clarke, 1996). Colorni (1987) first suggested that marine fish could acquire some immunity to C. irritans by surviving several infections. Burgess and Matthews (1995) demonstrated acquired immunity in the thick-lipped mullet, Chelon labrosus. They found that 82% of fish that had been previously exposed to high levels of theronts were immune to a secondary exposure.
Is "Ich" always present in our aquaria?
There is a widely held belief in the marine aquarium hobby that "Ich" is always present in our aquaria and this belief is often repeated on marine bulletin boards. There is much information in the scientific literature that contradicts this belief.
C. irritans is an obligate parasite (Burgess and Matthews, 1994; Dickerson and Dawe, 1995; Yoshinaga and Dickerson, 1994). Obligate means the parasite can not survive without infecting its host, in this case, fish. Theronts have been shown to die if a suitable host is not found within the required time. Yoshinaga and Dickerson (1994) found that few theronts (0.34%) were viable 12.5 hours after excystment and Burgess and Matthews (1994) found that no theronts were viable 18 hours after excystment. Colorni (1985) found that some excysted tomites (=theronts) were observed to be moving weekly after 48 hours. While the life span of the theronts appears variable, it is limited and all will die without finding a suitable host.
If an aquarium has no fish in it, and there are no additions of fish, or anything else that could be carrying trophonts, tomonts, tomites or theronts for a period of 6 weeks or longer, all parasites will have died. An aquarium such as this is an obvious exception to "Ich" always being present.
Many fish collected for marine aquariums will not be carrying "Ich". Incidence of C. irritans in wild fish varies widely and may be geographically related. Some authors have found few infected fish, if any, in the areas they have examined (Puerto Rico: Bunkley-Williams and Williams, 1994; southern California: Wilkie and Gordin, 1969) . Others have found that low levels of infection are not uncommon (e.g. southern Queensland; Diggles and Lester, 1996c). Keeping multiple fish in holding tanks and at aquarium stores increases the chances of a fish carrying "Ich" parasites, but it is still possible to acquire a fish that is not infected with "Ich".
If new fish are quarantined for at least 6 weeks, any parasites on the fish will have gone through a number of life cycles increasing the number of parasites present. In the majority of cases, the increase in parasite numbers will result in full blown infection and fish can be treated to remove the parasites. Hyposalinity has been demonstrated to break the life cycle of "Ich" (Cheung et al. 1979; Colorni, 1985) and fish correctly treated with hyposalinity will be free from "Ich". Any fish that do not show signs of infection after 6 weeks are very unlikely to be carrying any parasites.
If fish that are free from "Ich" (either because they were not originally infected or because they have been treated with hyposalinity) are added to an aquarium that is free from "Ich", the aquarium will stay free from "Ich" and be another exception to "Ich" always being present.
Burgess and Matthews (1994) were attempting to maintain a viable population of C. irritans which could be used in later studies. To maintain the parasite populations, they needed host fish in order for the trophonts to feed and continue the life cycle. Each host fish was only used once in a process of serial transition such that none of the hosts would die or develop an immunity. While the procedure worked very well and enabled them to maintain populations for some time, the viability of the populations decreased with time and none of the 7 isolates they used survived more than 34 cycles, around 10 to 11 months. They suggest this is due to senescence and aging in cell lines is well recognised in Ciliophora.
The presence of aging cell lines in C. irritans suggests that an aquarium that has been running for longer than 12 months without any additions is unlikely to have any surviving "Ich" parasites, yet another exception to "Ich" always being present.
Whilst "Ich" may be present in some aquaria, it is certainly not present in all aquaria. Through careful quarantining and treatment, it is very much possible to establish and maintain an "Ich" free aquarium.
That said this supports Dave's claim because as long as there is a fish living in the aquarium there is a potential for the parasite's life cycle to continue, even if it goes unnoticed by us. There is also evidence that fish develop immunity against the disease
Immunity
Innate Immunity
Innate immunity refers to the general response to an invading pathogen or parasite regardless of that pathogen or parasite encountered (Dickerson and Clark, 1996). This form of immunity does not rely on previous encounters and includes generalised reactions such as secretion of mucus, but may include specific host cell responses (acquired genetically).
While little formal study has been performed on innate immunity of marine fish to C. irritans, innate immunity of freshwater fish to I. multifiliis, both between and within host species suggests that the former may be possible. Collective anecdotal evidence from marine aquarists lends weight to the idea that some species, such as chaetodontids (butterflyfish) and acanthurids (surgeonfish and tangs) may be more prone to Marine "Ich" infections, whereas other species such as callionymids (dragonets) are not at all. Intraspecific differences in innate immunity would be much harder to detect through random observation.
Acquired Immunity
Acquired immunity occurs when the response is specific to the invading organism, which is recognised directly or through antigens (Dickerson and Clarke, 1996). Colorni (1987) first suggested that marine fish could acquire some immunity to C. irritans by surviving several infections. Burgess and Matthews (1995) demonstrated acquired immunity in the thick-lipped mullet, Chelon labrosus. They found that 82% of fish that had been previously exposed to high levels of theronts were immune to a secondary exposure.
jallard
New member
I'm with brian here.......there are valid arguments about whether or not ich is always present in our tanks, or if a tank can be ich free. Because Ich is an opportunist parisite why would it ever go dormant if there is a suitable host to feed on in the tank. Why would the ich parisite all of a sudden decide to go dormant, "decide" being the operative word. A parisite is a simple organisms.
teh "Innate immunity" is what I referring to in the article posted above quite nicely.
ONE paracite is all that is needed to keep the disease alive and cyclic in a tank. some fish "always" seem to have ick that comes and goes, while others in teh same tank never show signs of disease even if there are multiple changes in compliment and tankmates ( IE: a transhipper or LFS, or even your own newly stocked tank that has fluctuations in input and export of corals, or forign water or fish)
I'm not saying my word is be all end all, but just making the point that while a "completely innoculated tank" does indeed exist, so can teh possibility of re-infections due to environmental changes.
ONE paracite is all that is needed to keep the disease alive and cyclic in a tank. some fish "always" seem to have ick that comes and goes, while others in teh same tank never show signs of disease even if there are multiple changes in compliment and tankmates ( IE: a transhipper or LFS, or even your own newly stocked tank that has fluctuations in input and export of corals, or forign water or fish)
I'm not saying my word is be all end all, but just making the point that while a "completely innoculated tank" does indeed exist, so can teh possibility of re-infections due to environmental changes.
well a huge difference in my fish today. I can not find one spot on any of my fish. I know it is not over at all. so for the next 6-8 weeks I am going to watch my temo and my water quality really weel. I am going to keep up with the vitamin c drops and the garlic . I can not believe the turn around in my fish. the other night I thought the dotty back was a goner for sure. I also got a uv sterlizer.I know it can kill your photoplankton but I can replace that easier then trying to get rid of ick again.
I know that and I also have read that with water changes and water quality my fish can become healther to fight ich off. I have been doing a ton of reading on this in the last few days. I do not think that it would be smart to put all my fish in a qt tank(30 gallon) and stress them out even more. I am just letting this run it's course.everyone is eating well and acting a lot better
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