MrTuskfish
Team RC
UV sterilizers in a different light
- Thread starter Aquarist007
- Start date
I'm concerned about it's potential effect on organic compounds in terms of the potential for releasing bound heavy metals and/ or limiting the ligands that bind them as well as it' effects on planktonic microfauna in general.
These were the primary reasons I stopped using mine after I realized they weren't doing much for disease control.
Aquariums are rich in toxic metals from food, supplements and so on. Fortunately most of them are bound up in organics and rendered non toxic. Busting up organics via vibration form the uv energy is concerning . I'm not sure how much of this hobby grade uv's are capable of but there is a potential for harmful changes since uv is a high energy source capable of displacing electrons and otherwise effecting molecular structures.
I also found it interesting that there was no comment about the effect of the diamataceous earth used in the study dzhuo cited. IIRC, it is a fine enough filter to take out the free swimming crptocaryon parasites, perhaps more effectively than uv ,but still subject to the same limits in terms of recirculation and the fact that only a small portion of the parasites will be free swimming at any given time.
Some really odd stuff posing as science came up in this thread . I promise not to start another debate but using uv to kill ozone?
Ozone(O3)absorbs uv and protects against it. Hence the concerns about flouro carbons harming the ozone layer. Uv doesn't "kill it". Don't know where that came from. For those contemplating ozone be careful to fiter it through gac to remove the toxins it makes in th water and the air released to protect yourself form it's effects on you and your household.
These were the primary reasons I stopped using mine after I realized they weren't doing much for disease control.
Aquariums are rich in toxic metals from food, supplements and so on. Fortunately most of them are bound up in organics and rendered non toxic. Busting up organics via vibration form the uv energy is concerning . I'm not sure how much of this hobby grade uv's are capable of but there is a potential for harmful changes since uv is a high energy source capable of displacing electrons and otherwise effecting molecular structures.
I also found it interesting that there was no comment about the effect of the diamataceous earth used in the study dzhuo cited. IIRC, it is a fine enough filter to take out the free swimming crptocaryon parasites, perhaps more effectively than uv ,but still subject to the same limits in terms of recirculation and the fact that only a small portion of the parasites will be free swimming at any given time.
Some really odd stuff posing as science came up in this thread . I promise not to start another debate but using uv to kill ozone?
Ozone(O3)absorbs uv and protects against it. Hence the concerns about flouro carbons harming the ozone layer. Uv doesn't "kill it". Don't know where that came from. For those contemplating ozone be careful to fiter it through gac to remove the toxins it makes in th water and the air released to protect yourself form it's effects on you and your household.
dzhuo
Active member
Have you check out this paper? TOC Destruction / Total Organic Carbon (TOC). Maybe worth to start a separate thread focus on the effect of UV on TOC for those who aren't interested beyond what's being discussed here.
Thanks, I read it, just now .
It's a water treatment paper for fresh water. Much of it really doesn't apply. For example,DI resins exhaust almost immediately in salt water. An organic is any C bound H or N whether it is dossolved or particluate but these compounds bind other things many of which we want to stay bound. So unlike purified water for your home,the reef tank needs water with a reasonable level of organics.Preferably rfactory organics( thosethat are rsistiveto bacterial degradation) GAC takes some out but not all types. UV at certain levels breaks the carbon bonds . It's a potential downside to uv use .
My question was for some of th folks who proported to know uv "kills ozone" and uv can't take out the good without taking out the bad orthat there is nothing in th wterolumn effectedby uvthat is of"any use".It's very possible to upset a reef with free metals that break loose. Invetebrates are particularly sensitive to heavy metals. For example free copper in ppb well below the levels we n test with hobby grade equipment kills them. Most of our tanks have excess copper and other metals way above NSW values but fortunately 99% of them are bound to organics. Ozone and some uv units depending on strength and wavelengths can break up organic compounds. The whole TOC /organics discussion is complex and goes well beyond this thread except in that uv may reorganize organics and such reorganization of organics may release heavy metals and be be harmful to a reef tank.
It's a water treatment paper for fresh water. Much of it really doesn't apply. For example,DI resins exhaust almost immediately in salt water. An organic is any C bound H or N whether it is dossolved or particluate but these compounds bind other things many of which we want to stay bound. So unlike purified water for your home,the reef tank needs water with a reasonable level of organics.Preferably rfactory organics( thosethat are rsistiveto bacterial degradation) GAC takes some out but not all types. UV at certain levels breaks the carbon bonds . It's a potential downside to uv use .
My question was for some of th folks who proported to know uv "kills ozone" and uv can't take out the good without taking out the bad orthat there is nothing in th wterolumn effectedby uvthat is of"any use".It's very possible to upset a reef with free metals that break loose. Invetebrates are particularly sensitive to heavy metals. For example free copper in ppb well below the levels we n test with hobby grade equipment kills them. Most of our tanks have excess copper and other metals way above NSW values but fortunately 99% of them are bound to organics. Ozone and some uv units depending on strength and wavelengths can break up organic compounds. The whole TOC /organics discussion is complex and goes well beyond this thread except in that uv may reorganize organics and such reorganization of organics may release heavy metals and be be harmful to a reef tank.
Aquarist007
New member
Wow this discussion on UV is way more then expected when I originally posted. Thank you all for your inputs. In rereading the open I realize I might of mislead thinking by using the word "irradicate"
In hindsight I should of stated "decreased the visible problem of the ich outbreak in my tanks"
Tom, my viewpoints about ich, and its treatment have not changed from the past and I am definetly not promoting UV as a cure or total irradication for rich.
My original intent was to ask if using UV controlled the rapid multiplying of rich which gave time to increase the overall heath of the fish
Restaraunt tanks are a very stress situation for fish. The temp and co2 level can rise quite rapidly over 12 hour. Customers are constantly banging on the glass etc. These variables are out of my controll even with weekly maintenance and water changes.
These are the tanks where there is a problem with ich even when adding properly quarantined and or treated fish
The incidence of ich has been zero in those tanks since the addition of UV. And most importantly in service with the clients re healthy diet enriched with omega 3
Coralife has changed the size of the chamber and the strength of the light ___has this helped to buy time to increase the health of the fish to fight off ich
In hindsight I should of stated "decreased the visible problem of the ich outbreak in my tanks"
Tom, my viewpoints about ich, and its treatment have not changed from the past and I am definetly not promoting UV as a cure or total irradication for rich.
My original intent was to ask if using UV controlled the rapid multiplying of rich which gave time to increase the overall heath of the fish
Restaraunt tanks are a very stress situation for fish. The temp and co2 level can rise quite rapidly over 12 hour. Customers are constantly banging on the glass etc. These variables are out of my controll even with weekly maintenance and water changes.
These are the tanks where there is a problem with ich even when adding properly quarantined and or treated fish
The incidence of ich has been zero in those tanks since the addition of UV. And most importantly in service with the clients re healthy diet enriched with omega 3
Coralife has changed the size of the chamber and the strength of the light ___has this helped to buy time to increase the health of the fish to fight off ich
Aquarist007
New member
Wow this discussion on UV is way more then expected when I originally posted. Thank you all for your inputs. In rereading the open I realize I might of mislead thinking by using the word "irradicate"
In hindsight I should of stated "decreased the visible problem of the ich outbreak in my tanks"
Tom, my viewpoints about ich, and its treatment have not changed from the past and I am definetly not promoting UV as a cure or total irradication for rich.
My original intent was to ask if using UV controlled the rapid multiplying of rich which gave time to increase the overall heath of the fish
Restaraunt tanks are a very stress situation for fish. The temp and co2 level can rise quite rapidly over 12 hour. Customers are constantly banging on the glass etc. These variables are out of my controll even with weekly maintenance and water changes.
These are the tanks where there is a problem with ich even when adding properly quarantined and or treated fish
The incidence of ich has been zero in those tanks since the addition of UV. And most importantly in service with the clients re healthy diet enriched with omega 3
Coralife has changed the size of the chamber and the strength of the light ___has this helped to buy time to increase the health of the fish to fight off ich
In hindsight I should of stated "decreased the visible problem of the ich outbreak in my tanks"
Tom, my viewpoints about ich, and its treatment have not changed from the past and I am definetly not promoting UV as a cure or total irradication for rich.
My original intent was to ask if using UV controlled the rapid multiplying of rich which gave time to increase the overall heath of the fish
Restaraunt tanks are a very stress situation for fish. The temp and co2 level can rise quite rapidly over 12 hour. Customers are constantly banging on the glass etc. These variables are out of my controll even with weekly maintenance and water changes.
These are the tanks where there is a problem with ich even when adding properly quarantined and or treated fish
The incidence of ich has been zero in those tanks since the addition of UV. And most importantly in service with the clients re healthy diet enriched with omega 3
Coralife has changed the size of the chamber and the strength of the light ___has this helped to buy time to increase the health of the fish to fight off ich
I used it for years and stopped. I still have them but don't use them. The outcomes in terms of potential changes for the worse to micro fauna and orgnaics can be subtle and occur over time,imo. At best it's a partial strlilizatin tactic in a recirculating system.
I had issues with corals an suspected part of reason related to longterm uv use and lower planktonic bacteria as food and to metabolize various elements including metals. I've decided killing bacteria is not one of my goals preferring a richer food web Since it doesn't control disease I don't see the benefi. Calms and fish thrive without it . It would be les of a conern in a fish only tank, imo.
Aquarist007
New member
andy2966
New member
I ran a 25 watt uv on a 90 and 55 hooked up together and added tons of fish with no QT from a little fmom and pop fish store with only 2 saltwater tanks to buy from. and never had an ich breakout in either tank. I had a wet dry and the uv was running through a magnum 350. Also had 3 or for HOB filters . No skimmer or live rock. And the tank ran fine for years. Had High Nitrates but that didn't affect the fish at all. I think the UVs keep the ich in check. Does not kill it all I'm sure. But I never seen any ich on my fish and I kept abou 10 fish in the 55 and about 25 in the 90. This was back in the late 80's early 90's.
I don't know if they reduce orp.
It seems they would if less bacteria consume less organics which are orp reducers.Netting out higher total organic carbon.
.Or, maybe just breaking up nucleic acids and proteins creates more orp reducing organics. I didn't happen monitor orp when I was using my uvs.
Uv light at wavelenghts of less than 254 can produce ozone which would raise orp but manufactured lamps are made to avoid going with those shorter UV wavelengths to avoid ozone production .
It seems they would if less bacteria consume less organics which are orp reducers.Netting out higher total organic carbon.
.Or, maybe just breaking up nucleic acids and proteins creates more orp reducing organics. I didn't happen monitor orp when I was using my uvs.
Uv light at wavelenghts of less than 254 can produce ozone which would raise orp but manufactured lamps are made to avoid going with those shorter UV wavelengths to avoid ozone production .
Aquarist007
New member
tks
i'll unhook mine and see if the orp rises.
the purpose of monitoring orp was to indirectly measure the increase in dissolved organics while i increased the dosage of microplantonic supplements to make a more enriched environment. so far all i have acheived is the growth of more cyano and brown algae.
if the uv is destroying bacteria and or killing it then this might be the source of my dirty tank
i am running pellets, have a 40 gal cheato fuge and a 60 gal fuge with 200lbs of live rock
you would think my dt would be spotless
thanks again for your stellar inputs
You are welcome,
FWIW, I monitor orp now just to see if I have a shift. I bought a monitor and controller a several years ago as I was planning to dose ozone. Got a nice generator too but didn't dose because I became concerned about it's potential effect on organics and free metal adsorbtion. So, I figured , might as well use the monitor. It runs 315 to 350mv.
I've been dosing vodka and vinegar for 3.5 years . I have no cyano and just spot of hair algae on a few frag plugs from time to time. I do get a little red turf algae. Very small cuc just a few snails here and there. Feed over 40 fish well and have no signs of ich in the system at all.
See, you wan't organics in the water to bind with free metals and render them relatively harmless but you want to export those organics too to prevent TOC build up. . To do that via skimming they need to be amphipathic( different poles in different places on them so one end is drawn to the water and the other is repelled by it. This state traps them in the air water interface at the bubble and makes them more skimmable. Bacteria that consume the organics fit that profile.
I don't wan't to take this thread too far off the uv topic.
If you are carbon dosing via pellets or otherwise this thread of mine has more and may be of interest:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2134105&highlight=organic+carbon+dosing
FWIW, I monitor orp now just to see if I have a shift. I bought a monitor and controller a several years ago as I was planning to dose ozone. Got a nice generator too but didn't dose because I became concerned about it's potential effect on organics and free metal adsorbtion. So, I figured , might as well use the monitor. It runs 315 to 350mv.
I've been dosing vodka and vinegar for 3.5 years . I have no cyano and just spot of hair algae on a few frag plugs from time to time. I do get a little red turf algae. Very small cuc just a few snails here and there. Feed over 40 fish well and have no signs of ich in the system at all.
See, you wan't organics in the water to bind with free metals and render them relatively harmless but you want to export those organics too to prevent TOC build up. . To do that via skimming they need to be amphipathic( different poles in different places on them so one end is drawn to the water and the other is repelled by it. This state traps them in the air water interface at the bubble and makes them more skimmable. Bacteria that consume the organics fit that profile.
I don't wan't to take this thread too far off the uv topic.
If you are carbon dosing via pellets or otherwise this thread of mine has more and may be of interest:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2134105&highlight=organic+carbon+dosing
mdenigris
New member
Well, here's my experience with UV FWIW.
I recently moved to a 90 Gallon tank from a 72 BowFront that I had running for about 10 years. About a year into the 72 gallon, the tank contracted a case of Ich. I installed a 36w TurboTwist inline with the return pump. I went large because the high flow of the return pump (the only place I could plumb it) demanded a high wattage UV to have any effect.
I did lose one Yellow Tang to that outbreak, but after installing the UV, the Ich disappeared and I never saw another trace of it again for as long as I ran that tank. I changed the bulb on the UV once every two years or so.
About a month ago, I moved everything into the 90. I decided not to run UV on that tank because of recent bad press, and after all, I hadn't seen Ick in ages -- my livestock sources must be solid. You know where this is going, don't you?
Last night I went to feed the fish, and ... Ick outbreak - every fish has it.
Now, it's probable that it was introduced with some new additions that were added last week, but I find it interesting that I went a decade without seeing Ich while periodically adding new corals and fish as I went along and 1 month into the new tank without UV - I see Ick. Coincidence? Luck? Probably. Maybe. I don't know.
So I realize this is hardly scientific, and I like to think of myself as a scientific kind of guy, but that's my experience. Perhaps the UV kept the Ick in check for 10 years but never eradicated it. Maybe the UV eventually killed the population in the old tank and prevented new outbreaks if the tank was re-infected. I don't know the answer for sure, but the 36W UV system is now on the 90 (parallel to the return pump this time running at a lower flow) and we'll see what we see.
Sometime's experience and observation defies all known science and logic.
I recently moved to a 90 Gallon tank from a 72 BowFront that I had running for about 10 years. About a year into the 72 gallon, the tank contracted a case of Ich. I installed a 36w TurboTwist inline with the return pump. I went large because the high flow of the return pump (the only place I could plumb it) demanded a high wattage UV to have any effect.
I did lose one Yellow Tang to that outbreak, but after installing the UV, the Ich disappeared and I never saw another trace of it again for as long as I ran that tank. I changed the bulb on the UV once every two years or so.
About a month ago, I moved everything into the 90. I decided not to run UV on that tank because of recent bad press, and after all, I hadn't seen Ick in ages -- my livestock sources must be solid. You know where this is going, don't you?
Last night I went to feed the fish, and ... Ick outbreak - every fish has it.
Now, it's probable that it was introduced with some new additions that were added last week, but I find it interesting that I went a decade without seeing Ich while periodically adding new corals and fish as I went along and 1 month into the new tank without UV - I see Ick. Coincidence? Luck? Probably. Maybe. I don't know.
So I realize this is hardly scientific, and I like to think of myself as a scientific kind of guy, but that's my experience. Perhaps the UV kept the Ick in check for 10 years but never eradicated it. Maybe the UV eventually killed the population in the old tank and prevented new outbreaks if the tank was re-infected. I don't know the answer for sure, but the 36W UV system is now on the 90 (parallel to the return pump this time running at a lower flow) and we'll see what we see.
Sometime's experience and observation defies all known science and logic.
Last edited:
Fishbulb2
New member
Yes, that's very possible. Monitor the system for 10 more years and report back.
Ich should come and go, but my understanding is it's over the course of weeks to months. If you still see no signs of ich 6 months or so from now, that would be very impressive.
Quick question for people how "manage" ich with UV. Do you ever see your fish scratching on the rocks or otherwise to make you think maybe they are still harboring a small load of parasites that you can't clearly see?
FB
mdenigris
New member
Yes, that's very possible. Monitor the system for 10 more years and report back.
Ich should come and go, but my understanding is it's over the course of weeks to months. If you still see no signs of ich 6 months or so from now, that would be very impressive.
FB
lol. agreed
Englishmatt
New member
Woooo hoooo....here we go again....
First of all, I'm not advocating UV as a subsitute to lazy husbandry or bad QT practices. The following is my experience(s) based on my actual results and my actual QT laziness.
OK - So I added a reminder on my work schedule to update my post on this matter. FWIW, this is a pretty interesting thread.
Ok...So here's MY facts.
In my latest tank I NEVER had ICH. I run a 54W UV 24 hours a day, non-stop, mainly for water clarity and and some protection against parasites etc... My environment is a 150G DT, 40G Ref, 40g QT and 30G sump.
On JULY 2nd I purchased a Yellow Tang. Since it came from my local LFS, where all my fish have come from, I didn't QT the fish.
Well, sure as s*@t I got ICH two (2) days later. What a pleasant July 4th present. :headwalls:
Every fish in the DT got ICH to a varying degree. Surprisingly enough I only lost a Lawn Mower Blenny...but I'm not sure if that was ICH related (he certainly had ICH) or the fact that I ran out of algae for him to munch on. Either way, he went from awesome to dead in about 1 week.
The only permanent ICH weapon I use is the UV. Upon recommendation from my LFS I did treat with DR.G's medicated fish food (which the fish hated, but if hungry enough did eat).
After about 1 week, no signs of ICH anywhere. I continued to use the DR. G's food for 2 more weeks per the directions.
So understanding the life cycle of ICH is typically between 8-10 weeks I expected things to take course and new ICH to arise right about now.
It's been 10 1/2 weeks (almost 11 weeks) and no ICH. Not a single dot. No fish flashing/rubbing...no evidence at all.
Like I said earlier, I am a believer in UV "IF" used correctly and a user follows a few simply principals:
1.) Route the UV in such a way that most, if not all, the water passes by the UV before returning to the tank. If that's not possible, make sure you do the best you can to route as much water as possible through the UV device.
IMO and only IMO while you won't get all the ICH on the first pass, the multiple visits to the UV light show will reduce and maybe eliminate it over time.
2.) Try to get the flow slow enough so exposure is prolonged yet not slow enough that you don't bake the lense with crap. See next point...
3.) Take out the UV tube and clean it once a month provide for the highest UV exposure as possible.
I do understand the concerns with using UV and OZONE reactors....
I do beleive that for the majority of cases, where possible and not cost prohibitive a decent UV device does have merit.
That being said, prevention if ICH is prefered over fighting it.
Anyway....I'll report back in another 4 weeks.
:deadhorse:
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