Vancomycin

[hankthetank]

Has anyone ever used Vancomycin to treat their fish?I recently came into a supply of it and have no use for it for human usage due to its low absorption when taken orally.But I would expect that absorption would be good across gill tissue.If anyone has any experience with this I would appreciate hearing about it.

 

[Percula9]

Vancomycin is usually given I.V to people. You can try it, but how effective it will be I have no idea. It all depends on the size of the molecule that will determine whether it can pass thru the gill membrane. These membranes are semipermiable. There is the difficulty determining dosage. There are plenty of effective antibiotics for fish on the market. Why do you want to try this? Unless you can set it up in a controlled study to prove efficacy please don't bother.

 

[fishyvet]

Vancomycin is used for treating multi-drug resistant Staph or Enterococcus infections. These are highly resistant bacteria and vancomycin is the ONLY antibiotic available that has an effect on these organisms and therefor should only be used when bacterial culture and sensitivity indicate its use is necessary. Imperical and unrestricted use of antibiotics has resulted in the development of highly resistant superbacteria that are very difficult to treat, in humans and in animals (including fish). I strongly advise you not to use this antibiotic unless you have a demonstrated need for it.

On a more technical note, this antibiotic only has a spectrum of activity against Gram-positive bacteria. Most of the pathogens of concern in fish are Gram-negative. Also, a 5% aqueous solution has a pH of 2.5-4.5, not exactly compatible with our marine friends.

Please do not use this medication.

 

[Percula9]

Thank you fishyvet for reenforcing what I already said, but in greater detail. The over use of antibiotics has created super resistance. Therefore it is harder to fight these pathogens. The person probably obtained this drug thru unreputable means. Now wants to experiment on innocent livestock.

 

[hankthetank]

Percula9 you show a real lack of manners by posting such assumptions out loud.Your parents will be very disappointed if they hear of this.

 

[hankthetank]

Thank you for the info fishyvet.

 

[hankthetank]

By the way has anyone here ever heard of Clostridium difficile?Vancomycin is prescribed orally for this one particular condition.Which is how I obtained mine,not that it is anyone's business.And the pH of a 5% aqueous solution is kind of immaterial when you consider how much of that solution you actually have to add.And your info on Vancomycin is about 10 yrs out of date.There are newer antibiotics that have superseded it for resistant Staph infections.I have an Angel that has had a cloudy eye that has resisted Erythromycin,Keflex,Cipro,and Minocycline.The flukes which caused the infection have been dealt with long ago.The fish is fine otherwise.

 

[Percula9]

Antibiotics are used to treat secondary infections from the effects of flukes. Flukes are treated with either a fresh water dip or a formalin malachite green dip.

 

[fishyvet]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10637732#post10637732 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hankthetank
By the way has anyone here ever heard of Clostridium difficile?Vancomycin is prescribed orally for this one particular condition.Which is how I obtained mine,not that it is anyone's business.And the pH of a 5% aqueous solution is kind of immaterial when you consider how much of that solution you actually have to add.And your info on Vancomycin is about 10 yrs out of date.There are newer antibiotics that have superseded it for resistant Staph infections.I have an Angel that has had a cloudy eye that has resisted Erythromycin,Keflex,Cipro,and Minocycline.The flukes which caused the infection have been dealt with long ago.The fish is fine otherwise.

Hank, I maintain that my info is not out of date... my mistake perhaps was using the word "only." I was simply trying to emphasize the importance of not using the drug for fear of creating bacterial resistance. Antibiotics more powerful than vancomycin are reserved for vancomycin-resistant organisms. Any idea how vancomycin-resistant organisms are created?

Have you confirmed that bacteria are responsible for the cloudy eye? If the cloudy eye has "resisted" treatment with the above antibiotics (assuming you treated appropriately) I would guess that you don't have a bacterial problem. Most cases of corneal edema clear with improved water quality.

 

[hankthetank]

Percula cloudy eyes are almost always caused by a secondary bacterial infection after flukes have bored through the slime coat.And what about copper,quinine,and organophosphates such as Trichlorfon.They will all clear flukes and other exoparasites.
Fishyvet the fish has been maintained in a reef system with undetectable NO3 and PO4,and excellent growth of SPS corals.(except during treatment of course!)The fact is that this fish's immune system just isn't up to the task.

 

[fishyvet]

Is the eye condition affecting its quality of life or is it more of a cosmetic issue?

If you believe that the fish's immune system is to blame you can add beta glucan (an immune stimulant) along with garlic to the diet. Make sure the fish is getting an appropriate and varied diet to ensure health.

 

[hankthetank]

Started with 250 mg Vancomycin per 10 gal.Will post results in a week or so.

 

[Linkblaze]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10638490#post10638490 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fishyvet
Hank, I maintain that my info is not out of date... my mistake perhaps was using the word "only." I was simply trying to emphasize the importance of not using the drug for fear of creating bacterial resistance. Antibiotics more powerful than vancomycin are reserved for vancomycin-resistant organisms. Any idea how vancomycin-resistant organisms are created?

Have you confirmed that bacteria are responsible for the cloudy eye? If the cloudy eye has "resisted" treatment with the above antibiotics (assuming you treated appropriately) I would guess that you don't have a bacterial problem. Most cases of corneal edema clear with improved water quality.

As somebody that works in a hospital lab, I concur with FishyVet. Vanco is still the drug of choice to treat MRSA just for the reason he said: Staph is bug that easily develops immunity (unlike, say Strep).

 

[Puffer Queen]

When you say "resistant" - have you done a culture/MIC's ??? or are you "guessing" at a bacteria and trying to treat??

 

[billsreef]

Hank,

I think you need to step back from the shotgun aproach. Your using all the wrong ammo. The Vancomycin will not likely work for two reasons, one it's only for gram positive bacteria and most SW pathogenic bacteria are gram negative, two the reason it doesn't work well orally is because it's just to darn big to cross the intestinal lining and if it's too big to cross intestinal lining it is definitely too big to cross the gill membranes. You previous choice of antibiotics is also a group of poor choices for treating bacterial infections in SW fish. Erythromycin is not very effective, again it's primarily for gram positive bacteria. Keflex is not very water soluble making it impossible to get therapeutic levels in a tank. Cipro at least is wide spectrum, but the high calcium levels in our SW tanks can interfere with it making it a poor choice, same problem with Minicylcline. While they can work, the dosage needs to be very high to overcome the calcium inteference. If you truly want to have success with treating bacterial problems you are better off with a different set of antibiotics. I would recommend the Furans such as Nitrofuran as a good first choice.

 

[hankthetank]

All of the previously mentioned antibiotics were given in a prepared food that I make at dosages varying from 250-400mg/100gms of a paste food I make in addition to dosing the same amt per 10 gal.He eats it like a pig.They are all fine oral antibiotics.They did not work.The cloudiness actually waxes and wanes but in no particular correlation with any treatment.When you rule out water quality,nutrition,and stress from tankmates(He rules a 210)what is left but the fact that you are dealing with one very tough bug?I chanced upon a supply of a drug that knocks out the tough guys and I shouldn't use it?I'm done with this until I see what happens in a few days or so.Have fun.

 

[billsreef]

The problem isn't that the antibiotics aren't good ones, the problem is that they aren't the appropriate ones. Let me give you a quick a dirty microbiology class to explain why. Essentially bacteria are lumped into two groups depending on how their cell walls take certain stains on a microscope slide. These are groups are gram positive and gram negative. It is differences in the cell wall that cause the different bacteria to stain differently. It is also those same differences that cause antibiotics to be effective against different bacteria based on those bacteria being gram positive or gram negative.

As it's been mentioned before, most all pathenogenic bacteria in the marine environment are gram negative. You have been throwing antibiotics that are for gram positive bacteria or are known to be ineffective for treating marine fish. Like I said before, your using the wrong ammunition. You need antibiotics that are primarily effective against gram negative bacteria and known to be effective on fish in a marine environment. To that end I would highly recommend going to a LFS and picking up some Nitrofuran or Furan2 which are highly effective against most bacterial infections in marine fish.

Before you dig your heels in too hard in defense of your chosen course of treatment, consider who your getting advice from here. A veterinary student, a professional aquarist, a clinical scientist in a hospital, a nurse, and a professional aquaculturist. That's a huge knowledge base with the knowledge pertinent to subject at hand. Makes for a great resource for solving problems like treating infections in fish

 

[hankthetank]

With all due respect I already passed that class Bill.Minocycline is not effective against gram positive organisms at all.In fact I used it on myself a year ago to clear recurring lesions which I deduced were a Mycobacterium infection.After draining the first one the hospital gave me Augmentin and sent me on my way.After a month of that another lesion appeared.I took it upon myself to look into the situation and after gathering the necessary info I acted on it.Result?No more lesions. Cipro has activity against both gram positive and gram negative organisms,as do the Furans.I asked for specific advice on the previous use of something which I have never used before.My own experience is long and considerable in the sciences of biology and chemistry.I personally don't like to use Furans for the same reasons I don't like to use Chloramphenicol.My own health!I am also a professional aquarist and have been almost continously in one form or another since 1981.Long term exposure to Furans is more hazardous than most other commonly available antibiotics,Chloramphenicol excepted of course.Since I need to use the agents on a regular basis I choose to minimize my exposure to known hazards.Old habits from my HazMat days die hard I guess.I appreciate most of what has been posted here,and the spirit in which it was posted,but must admit to a great aversion to being talked down to,and an even greater one to having my motives questioned.Am I experimenting?Yes.Why?Curiosity.And because I desire an outcome which I have been unable to achieve through conventional means.If memory serves me that is how and why pretty much all new knowledge is acquired.Have fun.

 

[billsreef]

Hank,

I never said Minocycline or Cipro weren't effective against gram negative bacteria, I said they are not particularly effective in a marine enviroment due to interference with Calcium, and I realize I forgot to mention that Magnesium also interferes with those drugs. BTW, aside from the bad idea of self medicating, tetracycline family antibiotics are not typically drugs of choice for zoonotic infections of Mycobacterium in people or fish. I know your curious about the Vancomycin, but it really is a poor choice to try based on what I said about it earlier. It's kind of like trying to remove a hex nut with a screw driver. The screw driver might be a perfectly good tool, but it's the wrong tool for the job. As for the Furans, I can understand your reluctance, but simple latex gloves and some basic cautions will take care of the risk. There also are some other antibiotics that would not have the same concerns that are known to be good choices, such as Kanamycin sulphate

BTW, a lot of times things we think are bacterial infections, but they are actually protozoan infections. Reason drugs like the furans often work on such infections is that they also have some anti protozoal activity.