various diy projects: b-ionic, denitrifier, etc

nightwing

New member
Hi all,

At Friday night's meeting, someone mentioned cooking up their own b-ionic-like additives. Does someone have details they could share with me?

Also, there was mention of a denitrifying device made from PVC and tubing. Does anybody have photos or how-to's for that? Perhaps an article explaining the concept/how it works?

Many thanks,
Seth
 
These two links should explain everything you want to know..
Good luck.. And Happy Reefing...

Oh! and by the way Weclome to the club and RC.
Rj
 
<img src="/images/welcome.gif" width="500" height="62"><br><b><i><big><big>To Reef Central</b></i></big></big>

This is more like it Mike,

:lol:
 
Are we still considering doing a building demonstration for the media reactor/denitrifier/whatever? I thought that was a really good idea.

Also, Seth, check out www.twopartsolution.com
You can buy the raw materials for making your own 2 part systems for real cheap from them. Also, they include the instructions for how to do it. It is really easy.
 
If you make the two part yourself, doesn't it make a large batch, almost like too much. If you need other people to go in on something like this, I could help.
 
Im thinking the denitrifier project would be good for a summer cookout build out type thing. The time we have at a normal meeting isn't enough I don't think. Plus I'd like to see what method works the best and what its all going to cost. I will keep up on this idea though and keep everyone posted.
 
Seth,

If you have not discovered it yet; click the forums tab at the top and it will take you to the listing of all the different ones here on Reef Central. The fourth one down is the Reef Chemistry Forum which has links to all of Randy Holmes Farley's reef chemistry articles...... hours of reading.

One piece of equipment that will interest you will be a calcium reactor; Randy has done some articles on the chemistry behind them as well. In general it is something that people migrate to as they get sucked deeper into the hobby and their collection of stony corals grows.

Enjoy the reading.
 
Eric,

The discussion of denitrifiers Friday night caught my interest so I too have been doing some research. Coincidently, while I was out at Salty the next day I picked up ' The Reef Aquarium ' -science,art, and technology volume three by C. Delbeck and J. Sprung. There is some good info. on the differences and function of different denitrifiersin the book. Incidently, we talked a little about the meeting if that puts a face to this post.

Anyways, I'll be interested in what you find.

Dave
 
Sounds good Dave, It seems like everytime I'm at salty critter I see someone from the club!

Keep me posted as to what one you think would be better to build.
Erik
 
thanks for all the links, folks.

From what I've seen, denitrifiers look pretty trivial, and dirt cheap.

I'll have to wander through the local home depot or lowes to see if they carry things like calcium chloride and magnesium chloride. Baking soda and epsom salt are easy enough to find, of course.
 
I just did a DIY denitrifier, it has been in service for almost 3 weeks. There are several ways to make them. The one I chose uses a 4" by 24" PVC pipe with caps and polyvinyl tubing wrapped around the outside, with bioballs inside. Will get back to you with the details later.
 
nightwing,

I have been using the Prestone Driveway Heat, which is manufactured by DOW. I use Randy's recipe #1 with an adjustment to the basic recipe as per his instructions (read carefully). You might want to go with Two Part Solution. There is a recent and ongoing debate about DOW's reformulated products and elevated levels of Boron. However, no negative effects have been hypothesized or proven. A link you should bookmark for future use is the reef chemistry calculator.

http://home.comcast.net/~jdieck1/chem_calc3.html

Click on traditional. It's very helpful and easy to use.

All the best.
 
I have notice that the DIY denitrifier uses bioballs. and I have seen in my experience with using a wet/dry filter that after almost a year of use, the bioballs will raise your nitrates. I would keep an eye on that.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11692733#post11692733 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CJBDFRAZ
I have notice that the DIY denitrifier uses bioballs. and I have seen in my experience with using a wet/dry filter that after almost a year of use, the bioballs will raise your nitrates. I would keep an eye on that.

This isn't quite the same issue though, I think. It isn't the bioballs per se that cause high nitrates, it's the application they are being used in.

Anyway, correct me if I'm wrong here, but heres how I understand it....

In their usual application (i.e. a wet/dry) bioballs they are extremely effective at converting nitrite to nitrate: they provide the large amount of surface area necessary to host lots of aerobic ammonia/nitrite eating bacteria. This is, especially in a Fish-Only type tank where nitrates are far less of a big deal, a great thing: they can keep up with even very high outputs of fish poop like gangbusters and keep fish from poisoning themselves. The caveat is, of course, that because wet/dries are super oxygenated environments, they do almost nothing as far as turning nitrate into harmless nitrogen. They really are nitrate factories in that their job is, literally, to produce nitrates (by getting rid of the much more toxic precursors).

This is, however, also why they are no longer recommended for reef tanks. When you don't have to worry about handling huge amounts of fish poop (i.e. tons of deadly ammonia), fuges/live rock/deep sand beds are superior in the sense that, while more delicate, they can help handle the entire range of the nitrogen cycle, meaning that a 0 nitrate tank is far easier to maintain.

In this sort of system, a wet dry with bioballs is going to produce nitrates primarily just because all the work has already been done by the live rock, etc.: meaning that the bioballs are basically now not doing much OTHER than catching and holding decaying materials (and keeping them away from the protein skimmer until its too late).

Now, in a coil denitrifier however, it's almost the exact opposite. By the time the water hits the bioball section in this setup, there is almost no conversion from nitrite to nitrate going on at all (usually this stops in the last 1/4 of the tubing). It's all conversion from nitrate to nitrogen at this stage, and the bioballs are not going to be creating any nitrates in this application. As long as the system is built right, they will be destroying them: and quite effectively.

You also normally keep gunk out of a denitrifier entirely (unlike with wet dry bioballs, which are often the very first thing that dirty drain water from the tank hits).

What I've heard as far as complaints about with denitrifiers is that figuring out the perfect flow rate is very tricky at the outset. Too slow, and that super-low oxygen environment can cause completely different toxic compounds (ones that we don't even test for) to form. Too fast and nothing will happen. You really have to buy a good pump/valve system so that you can fine tune it precisely (you tune the output of the pump going into the denitrifier), and then test the output so that you are just on the cusp of getting a 0 nitrate output from a higher nitrate input.

The ph is also a concern, because the output drips will be lower in ph than the input, meaning it's dropping your ph in the tank over time (albeit very slowly). Most people I've heard of that have success with these systems also have some sort of ph buffer/calcium reactor going at the same time.

Also keep in mind that these systems have to cycle, just like a tank, and most DIY plans say that it can take up to 6 weeks until all the right bacteria are in the right places.
 
Dtip, nice summarization of a coil denitrator. You must really be absorbing a lot of what you read.

As Dtip said the bioballs are in the denitrator to house the anaerobic bacteria that are doing the final conversion of the nitrates. It would not be any concern as far as the bioballs causing problems like in a wet/dry.
 
Hello all,

I mentioned above that there was some interesting reading in Delbeek and Sprung's latest book. I'll try to paraphrase some of it for those who are interested.

All the points above are correct; a denitrifier functions by providing an oxygen depleted zone for the anaerobic bacteria to process nitrates. In their discussion they describe two fundemental differences between the bio-ball version and the sulfur version.

The bio-ball version requires 'feeding' an organic carbon source to metabolize the nitrates. Among sources sited would be methanol, acetic acid, or most commonly used ethanol (vodka).... seems like a waist of good vodka to me. I have read some reefers are using the bioball system without 'feeding'; I can only imagine the authors response would be that there are many organic carbon sources in a reef system however if the denitrifier becomes carbon limited it won't process all the nitrates.

The sulfur version does not require feeding because it uses inorganic carbon sources; these include carbon dioxide and bicarbonate. Well, at least it uses sulfur for 'food' instead of precious vodka. One note here, I have done some extensive searching for sulfur sources that won't charge the premium of the aquarium trade. I still have not found a perfect source, but advise all to be aware that in my opinion agricultural sulfur and crude sulfur are probably not good options. Typical agricultural sulfur uses 10 percent bentonite clay so the pellets break up when they get wet. crude sulfur means the source is from the refining industry which implies impurities would be of the petrochemical nature.

The basics on flow is too fast provides enough oxygen that the system won't go anaerobic and reduce nitrates. Too slow and the system will produce hydrogen sulfide; which you can detect by the odor of rotten eggs.

Some numbers they gave are the reactor should be five times taller than width. Flow at start-up is given roughly at 1 drop per second per liter of media to 1 liter per hour per liter of media. Once established flow can be up to 5 liters per hour per liter of media.

Finally, regarding ph. both systems produce effluent with lower ph. or alkalinity. For this reason, many people are including a section for calcuim reactor media to raise ph. and or replace depleted carbonates.

Hope all found this useful. I'll be glad to try and dig up the answers for any questions from their book.

-Dave
 
Back
Top