Very frustrating hobby. Looking for help.

[SCIFI_3D_zoo]

My main problem is I live about 2-2.5 hours from Tampa Bay parts. I'm really isolated out here in Sebring. I'm having difficulties and there's nobody else out here doing anything but growing algae. So I'm gonna have to drive out to a meeting or pay or beg somebody to come out here to help me. Seems silly to do either since you can get a lot of help in the forums. Maybe even a lot more than you could at a meeting. I just feel like quitting this hobby sometimes. Especially now. I posted my latest problem in the main CHEM forum but here it is just for the record ... BUT I need a lot more help than just this current crisis.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Just a regular water change... and all hell breaks loose. Right now... ALK is 6.0... and pH is 7.8. Normally my ALK is 9 and I noticed after the last water change (Using the same bag of salt mind you!!) that it was 10-11 ALK. I'm using Coralife Pro? Stuff disolves really fast.. I like it.

So I'm wondering what the hell happened to my pH. The other strange thing was I cleaned the entire sump out and my Kalk hose went into my trash can. So after I put everything together I actually pulled the Kalk pump all the way out and fished the hosed out to make sure it's not on the bottom. I have a pvc table covering the bottom so it's 3" off the bottom. THEN I noticed I had a white storm after adding a little Kalk. I don't know what happened?? I kicked up the settled crap? I've only been using it about a year. There shouldn't be 3-4" or something of stuff on the bottom of my trash can. I shouldn't be anywhere near it. So IF that's what happened what does that mean? I just added a dose of copper and whatever else settled down there? I imagined the stuff like a sludge... ready hard to kick up.

I wanted to mention that b/c I wasn't sure if Kalk could screw up my ALK. As far as I know it just affects pH, Ca, etc. Other than my tank looking like a winter snow-land, just in time for the holidays, I'm not too worried about a little limewater cloud in the tank. I'm more puzzled, and WORRIED, about this pH. I have no idea how it could have happened. I checked my salt mix with a refractometer. The mdt salinity is ok too at about 1.025.

I haven't checked Mg/Ca in awhile b/c for weeks they've been ok and I have little to no growth of anything. Not by choice. I started scaling back to every 2 weeks on that, and sometimes 3-4 weeks since it's not changing. Ca was actually 500+ last time. This hobby is so frustrating. I was reading how the new TOTM finds the hobby very relaxing. After breaking down all my pumps and cleaning out my sump I was not relaxed at all. BUT at least I could bask in the satisfaction of cleaning it up real good. BUT INSTEAD I had a Kalk storm... found it hard to sleep... and now this. Makes you really angry after putting 4 hours into it and this is what happens. Every few months I think about just selling it all. Anybody lives in Central Florida keep your eyes out for my posts if you are looking to buy stuff.

P.S. This is the 2nd time now the past 2 water changes that my JBJ ATO controller has broke. So everybody else be wary of it. All I did was shut my power strip off with 4 other pumps on it to do cleaning and it never came back on. EXACT same thing happened last time. If they send me another one I'll use a new better power-strip but if it does it again.... their product is definitely crap then. OThewise I'm buying something else for ATO.

 

[K9Nurse911]

Yikes...sounds like it would be frustrating...I wish I was knowledgeable enough in this hobby to help ya with your problems, but I'm not...good thing, though, is that there are many knowledgeable and experienced people on here that will probably chime in to help...good luck!!!


- Andrea

 

[W Ellis]

It sounds like you stirred up the kalk pate on the bottom of your topoff trash can. Do you a a pump in the can to mix the kalk water?

Kalk affects PH, Calcium and alkalinity. As it raises the calcium it will lower alkalinity due to the balance betweem the 2. Im guessing your ph has gone down because your alk is low.

If you have filter socks i would run those to help clear up the water and if you can do some water changes to help clear up the water and get the tanks levels back to normal.

You can run a pump in the topoff can twice a day for like 15 minutes to help mix the kalk into the water. You only want to topoff with the clear kalk saturated water so if you have build up in the can you are adding to much and its not getting used. I would recommend starting fresh with cleaning the can to eliminate the build up and risk of it kalk storming the tank again.

Hope this makes sense and helps.

 

[mflamb]

Are there any LFS in Sebring or Lake Placid?

 

[Jay03GT]

I posted this in the chem forum, but did you add copper to your kalk?

 

[SCIFI_3D_zoo]

But isn't it thick? I have my pump on a stand at least 3" above the bottom of a 17 gallon tall kitchen trash can. Not a really big bottom but there shouldn't be that much stuff accumulated down there in 1 year or less. I'll have to check more closely next time I empty it. It's really tough though... all this crap under a 90gal. stand sucks. I don't mix it. I put the LIME in and then add water to mix it... then let it settle for like an hour.

I don't know what my Mg/Ca is right now. I'll check it. I don't know, and will NEVER know, what it WAS though.

Is the settled KALK highly concentrated CALCIUM? What if even a little of that was dosed and it shot my Ca WAY over the top. Kalk will raise Ca but drop your ALK eh? pH has stayed around 7.8. Normal range for me. It might have dropped it a little from 8.0.

As per Randy's recommendations... I just briefly mix it ... and give it a chance to settle out. The pump is on a little pvc stand so I only dose the clear part. I have no idea what happened. I have to find out what is at the bottom of the can when it goes low. This is almost and impossible thing to do too. Maybe I can use a mirror. I wish I had a better setup but...

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13990572#post13990572 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by W Ellis
It sounds like you stirred up the kalk pate on the bottom of your topoff trash can. Do you a a pump in the can to mix the kalk water?

Kalk affects PH, Calcium and alkalinity. As it raises the calcium it will lower alkalinity due to the balance betweem the 2. Im guessing your ph has gone down because your alk is low.

If you have filter socks i would run those to help clear up the water and if you can do some water changes to help clear up the water and get the tanks levels back to normal.

You can run a pump in the topoff can twice a day for like 15 minutes to help mix the kalk into the water. You only want to topoff with the clear kalk saturated water so if you have build up in the can you are adding to much and its not getting used. I would recommend starting fresh with cleaning the can to eliminate the build up and risk of it kalk storming the tank again.

Hope this makes sense and helps.

 

[SCIFI_3D_zoo]

One guy with some fish... and that's about it. Oh.. there's a Petco too that just opened and those guys... they mostly have a few sickly yellow tangs. They can't even do that. No... I end up visiting FOIS in Tampa usually. And I'm getting sick of buying stuff that just dies. Last thing I have that is not opening up... BEFORE all of this mess.. is a nice pink gonipora (flower pot). I can tell it's going to die soon. Maybe I'm not feeding enough. I not only put food in 2-3 times a week (pellets or Nori), I have lots of Tangs that provide food, and I've been using Reef Booster/Prodibio every week for 3 months... and Rod's Reef once a week. Should be plenty of food.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13990926#post13990926 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mflamb
Are there any LFS in Sebring or Lake Placid?

 

[SCIFI_3D_zoo]

No no. No copper. I saw that in Randy's article and thought his test vials were saying that was one of the precipitates from Kalk. I forget what the precipitate is exactly. Maybe it's highly concentrated Calcium.. and that would explain why I had the snow storm.

 

[quikenuff]

Hi Scfi,

Let's take a step back. Could/would you please post you current tanks stats? I'm interested in current Ca, Mg, and Alk, 2nd before this most recent water change, when was the last one?

You mentioned a Ca of 500+ in a previous post, with that said I'm not surprised that your Alk is low. I find it very difficult to keep Ca that high with a respectable alk level. In my opionion Alk is far mor important than ca level so lets start by making it's levels your main focus.

Make this link you friend... http://home.comcast.net/~jdieck1/chemcalc.html.

Please post back what your current tank stats are and we'll try to help the best we can.

Quik

 

[tedmonds]

Kalkwasser also loses potency very fast. So I would think if your putting it in a 17g container unless you have extremely heavy evap it might be sitting in there too long. I have a 150g tank with 2g evap a day and I slow drip kalk out of a 5g container. It's a pita to fill that every other day but it keeps the kalk and topoff fresh and STABLE. Keep it simple is the best advice I can offer. If you get caught up in the small things instead of the overall health of the tank you're going to give yourself an anuerism. : )

P.S. Don't feel bad about the goniopora, they die for almost everyone.

 

[cwegescheide]

I'm sorry about the problems your having lately. Trust me I think ALL of us have been there atleast once. Several months ago I got so frustrated with my display I tore it down to redo the thing. With that said I also have a decent sized frag tank which (knock on wood) is doing pretty well at the moment.

A few things I think you should do. Even if for several weeks your tank is running well you still should test to verify things ARE doing well. Especially when your topping off with kalk to supplement, evaporation varies depending on the time of year. Be sure to test with quality test kits and do it once per week if you think you need it or not. Sometimes you will be surprised. Prepare your own RO water and make sure your filters are good with a TDS meter. Use a good quality salt that most other successful reefers use. To be honest I've never heard of the salt mix you use and do regular water changes.

When I set up my tank (not to sound like I'm an expert or anything) I try to look at things that have a potential for failure like auto-top offs. Many a reefers tank have taken a hit because their top-off failed. I just use a float valve for my top off. Each time I do a water change I make sure there is not any crud building up so it doesn't stick.

I don't think your feeding your fish enough. If your feeding 2-3 x's/week and you have several fish, I don't think thats enough but I could be wrong.

Last but not least, read a lot.

I think part of what makes this hobby so rewarding is knowing how (sometimes) frustrating and difficult reefkeeping can be. Personally I think if it was easy I would get bored after a while.

Good luck,
Chris

 

[SCIFI_3D_zoo]

History: Oct-- Nov. weekly #'s
pH 7.8 - 8.0
Salinity 1.026
Ca+ 550
Alk 9-11 dKH
Mg 1300-1350
Nitrates 2-5 (trying to get those down using Prodibio)

Recent History: Starting about 11-10-08 weekly #'s
pH same
Alk same
Nitrates same

After a couple months of weekly ck's I started cutting back on all but the Alk, pH, etc. 3-4 wk cks on Ca/Mg.

Sun 12-21-08 did water change and everything was fine but the ALK was 6.0 using the same bag of salt I used 6 weeks earlier. Only thing I noticed then was my ALK went to about 10 dKH. That's why I think it had something to do with the KALK I dosed right before the Ca precipitation. I'm not sure what happened.

ALK now is up to 8.3 dKH and I gave it a bit more baking soda to up it about 1 dKH. Will ck. tomorrow. pH 7.8 (not dosing KALK now or would be 8.0 probably). Ca+ = 550. Mg 1280... this is GOOD. I'm still thinking it had something to do with the Kalk sludge?

 

[mflamb]

I believe that something may be wrong with your test kits or test procedures. To maintain a Ca level of 550 ppm, your Mg would have to be at least 1650ppm, and typically with Ca at that level with a pH in that range, Alk is usually around 7.5-8.0 dKH.

The last measurements of Ca 550 ppm and Mg 1280 ppm would be difficult to achieve. Calcium is normally equal to or less than 1/3 of Mg.

 

[SCIFI_3D_zoo]

Quickenuff: I talked to Randy about a lot of that. 550 Ca is ok. My Mg was ok and my Alk was actually going up but normally holding steady around 9 dKH. It even says in his article not to worry about high Ca like that but to let it go down on it's own. It's been like that for months. Probably from using a high Ca salt mix and adding KALK to keep my pH up. The Ca isn't being used up as quick so it just stays at 550.

OH.. on 12-10-08 I got a 11 dKH ALK. That may be the problem. I didn't worry about it too much thinking it would settle back down to the normal range. And then adding KALK may have pushed it over the top. Sinking my ALK?

Tedmonds: My 90gal uses 1.5 gal/day I think. It lasts like 1.5 weeks. From everything I've read that's fine. It settles in like an hour. There's very little precipitation on top. I really don't think it's unstable using it up in 1-2 weeks. I'm definitely not changing Kalk water every 2 days. I don't cover it up either. From everything I've read this is all ok... and asking Randy questions too.

 

[SCIFI_3D_zoo]

OH.. on 12-10-08 I got a 11 dKH ALK. That may be the problem. I didn't worry about it too much thinking it would settle back down to the normal range. And then adding KALK may have pushed my Ca over the top. Sinking my ALK? But my Ca tests 550 now.

I have 2 Ca Salifert kits. I tested the number with both kits. Only one Mg kit... but the #'s have very very slowly gone down over weeks. So the #'s do jive from week to week. I have 2 ALK Salifert kits too. Whenever one is out of line I double-check it with the other kit. I only had 2 kits b/c the others are about used up.

I have a record of tests for... 6 months here... and the Mg has always been in the 1400-1250 range. Ca started off 400 and was raised to 450 or so using B-Ionic... then up to 500-550 using Kalk the past several months. Alk the entire time has been 9-10 on average. It's all really been pretty steady. And I've gone through a few kits since then.. and threw away a bunch of old ones that were unreliable junk.
I'll ck. all the #'s again tomorrow. I think I have an extra Lamotte ALK around here too.

 

[tedmonds]

IMHO it sounds like your just getting too caught up in the science. The best thing I ever did in this hobby was to stop testing my water all the time. My last tank was lps/softie. I changed the water 2-3 times a year, never tested the water, and ran it without a skimmer. Incredible growth and no problems. Your tank looks beautiful from the picture on here. Don't be so hard on yourself.

Scientifically though...I agree with last poster. When my calcium was in the 500's my MG was in the 1400's.

 

[plyle02]

For what it is worth, I have the same ATO.... I have had it for over 2 years, never had an issue.... Good luck, hope you resolve your issues with your tank....

 

[stevemc]

Sounds like you had an accident, dumped sludge, and things were added so fast that things got out of whack. It sounds like prior, things were good. I dose lime, and it does bring calcium and Alk up high. It seems to stable the problem of "too high of calcium will knock the Alk down" problem some-if it is dosed slow and regularly.. I agree Mag needs to be up too. The sludge is lime -Calcium Hydroxide, its just not mixed. When it hits a certain point in solution, it wont mix in any more, and just settles. If water is added, it mixes in and eventually all get used and there will be no sludge, if its mixed. I have found my calcium and alk have been way high, just using lime, and things were at their best. I agree, clean things up, test, and keep doing as you were, dont get too carried away with exact numbers. I like a high Calcium 400+ but dont worry too much. High Alk seems very good too. If you keep using lime these should stay up. Maybe use carbon to keep the nitrates/trites down. Skim it. And use your Phosban. I have found when alk is low, and calcium is up or vice versa, bring the low one up with a part of a 2 part, and slowly bring it up by dripping a solution(spoonful into gallon of tank water) into tank until it comes to desired levels, all the while keeping an eye on calcium or whatever was up. Dripping lime water will bring both up, but that is for out of balance levels. Dont give up, it will get easy and simple. You're just trying to get too exact.

 

[SCIFI_3D_zoo]

stevemc: I think the KALK raised the ALK a little at a time over weeks.... last reading was 11 dKH.... then that last dosing was over the top. Right now... there's not much I can do to lower Ca but wait... and not use KALK for awhile... BUT my pH might drop really low... like 7.5. Yea.. I can raise the Mg. I thought I read... you don't want to push BOTH #'s high?

Couple times... the KALK tank was low and I'd fill it up not paying attention. I didn't turn it off. So my sump would be really low and start filling up with Kalk... like 2-3 gallons. Only happened once or twice and I caught it. I think there's just a slight imbalance with my KALK and it is raising my ALK/Ca too high. Not enough is being used. I could mix a smaller amount of Lime in my Kalk bucket?? Do like 1/2 the normal. My ALK is back up to 10 dKH now. I'm just gonna raise the Mg... maybe lower my ALK manually... until this Kalk is empty and then try straight water for awhile and see how my pH does. Otherwise... I'll have to dose lower-concentrated Kalk.

I lost my CLAM I had for 2 years so far. SUCKS.

Sludge is concentrated Ca Hydroxide? I thought I read, and Randy confirmed, that you don't want to continually mix it. And after a year or so empty it out. From what you're saying I should get rid of it by just adding water till it's all disolved. I thought there were impurities that we wanted to settle out? I put the Lime in, add 17 gallons of water to mix it, let it settle for 1 hour, use. Damn, I researched this for quite awhile.

I thought my whole problem was the ALK going too high. What do you mean by high? I thought it had to balance with one being high (ALK or Ca/Mg) while the other in the low range.

Carbon doesn't affect Nitrates/Nitrites. I overskim right now. My Phosphates have gone to 0 using Prodibio too. So I got rid of my Phosban reactor and I'm watching the last bit of Cheato still alive too.

 

[tgcreef]

Alright I dont think this has been said but what about cleaning out your alk bucket before you refil it everytime? That way you wont have to worry about this again. Also all I can really say is just worry about one issue at a time, it sounds to me like your trying to change everything back to fast and all at once.

just an idea.

good luck with your tank

-Tim