Vodka Dosing

[Louis1959]

Good Morning. Quick Info. 54 gal. bow. Up and running approx. 9 months.
Display, live indo rock. 3" live sand base mix. 3 fire fish, 1 yellow Wrasse, 1 cardinal, 1 madarin dragonet, 1 Foxface, 2 pecula clowns, 1 red shrimp, 1 sally something crab, 1 blue claw hermit crab, 2 small hermits.

Sump consists of protein skimmer. not the best, but best match for sump size. Live Frag rock, 3 juvenile red mangrove plants(roots are almost engaged with 2" live sand bed. Multi live plant growth , not sure where how, but it is there.
Activated Carbon.

My challenge so far, all my levels so far have been fairly consistent and in line of being safe. I am looking forward to possibly going reef.

Issue 1 - Nitrate levels have been consistently running between 25-60 ppm, guessing I am over feeding, I think. Because of work hours, I generally feed 1-2 per day, mostly once per day. It appears the fish are getting mostly everything. Frozen Brine mixed with Arcti-pods, garlic juice, & liquid vitamins. I think I am going to drop out the Arcti-pods because I dont think anyone eats it except the protein skimmer.

Issue 2 - HAIR ALGAE, I know this stuff is a direct correlation to Higher Nitrate levels. It is kicking my butt. It is the reason I have introduced Vodka Dosing. I am being extremely anal with my logging data of dosing.

I deposit the vodka via a measured syringe into the overflow. Because my sump is so small the overflow deposits the water into the sump right onto my protein skimmer pump.
Hopefully the picture will depict the following. I had/have some really nice coraline growth growing on this pump. Not sure if that is good or bad for the pump. But since I have started dosing, the coraline appears to be getting bleached out.



I am wondering should I change anything, maintain. Be concerned. As I said I am early on into dosing. I am only coming into my 2nd week. I am now dosing at 0.2 mls per dose, once @ 6:00 AM, once @ 7:00 pm.

 

[sticky polyps]

I have never used vodka but I do use NoPox. stuff worked great for lowering nitrates to a safe level. I know there are some good charts as directions to dose vodka and they start off very slow. you probably wont see good results till you are farther into the larger doses. I would also check phosphate levels and get those to a low level before adding any coral and will also help in reducing nuisance algae. also I add the carbon source after my skimmer to make sure it gets to the denitrifying bacteria. I know that people who use biopellets sometimes route there reactor return aimed toward there skimmer intake to remove the bacteria after it has used up the food and absorbed some nitrate but that is because a lot of the bacteria is colonized there.
I may be a bit inaccurate there but my point is that I dose right after the skimmer to prevent any problems with the skimmer and to make sure what I dose makes it into my system...
anybody else want to chime in???

 

[whosurcaddie]

Its going to take some time. I'm sure phosphate is contributing to the GHA as well. Once you get well into your dosing regimen your nitrates will hit zero. once that happens you should cut your vodka dose in half. If nitrates start to raise again raise your vodka dose slightly and then hold steady that will be your maintenance dose.

One thing to consider carbon dosing removes phosphate but at a much slower rate than nitrate. When you become nitrate limited (0 nitrate) phosphate will no longer be pulled from the water via carbon dosing. This is when you should implement a GFO reactor.

some more reading. http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/index.php

 

[swhobbie1]

I dose vodka for about a year. I have very little coraline algae in the tank although I do have some very nice dark pink, red and purple patches. I think this is common for rocks to not have much coraline when dosing vodka.

 

[Louis1959]

Its going to take some time. I'm sure phosphate is contributing to the GHA as well. Once you get well into your dosing regimen your nitrates will hit zero. once that happens you should cut your vodka dose in half. If nitrates start to raise again raise your vodka dose slightly and then hold steady that will be your maintenance dose.

One thing to consider carbon dosing removes phosphate but at a much slower rate than nitrate. When you become nitrate limited (0 nitrate) phosphate will no longer be pulled from the water via carbon dosing. This is when you should implement a GFO reactor.

some more reading. http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/index.php

Jake and Whosurcaddie, (BTW I love that name....lol) Thank you so much for input.
- Guys , I get it , "PATIENCE" is the "KEY" phrase here and to have a lot of it.
- My Phosphates have never gone above 0.25 ppm, most often run around 0.175 ppm.
- I guess I think I may have to lean in the direction of dosing after skimmer. - Would you recommend adding dose to return pump section. This way I do not disturb the Sump colony?
- Would you recommend I start from scratch on the dosing, or because I am early in, it should not be an issue?

 

[whosurcaddie]

Don't start from scratch just go up from your current dose. Some people dose directly to the display but dosing in the return pump section is fine.

 

[Louis1959]

Thank you guys! Ill post when my values level off at 0, I ll note what dosage seems to be working too.

 

[jrr98002]

Be aware algae problems are also due to phosphates, not only nitrates. You'll need to address that as well if it's high.

 

[Louis1959]

[QUOwhat is consideredTE=jrr98002;23508906]Be aware algae problems are also due to phosphates, not only nitrates. You'll need to address that as well if it's high.[/QUOTE]

Ok, what is considered ideal levels for fish ;
Nitrates =
Phosphates =

Ideal levels for a reef set-up ;
Nitrates =
Phosphates =

 

[ReefsandGeeks]

For fish
"Ideal"
Nitrates=undetectable
Phosphates=undetectable

For fish
"acceptable"
Nitrates=40-100ppm(depending on fish)
Phosphates=not a concern?


For reef set up is a little more tricky. Depends on the type of coral. For SPS coral, most people sugest undetectable nitrates, and undetectable phosphates.

For soft coral and zoas, nitrates are often sugested at 5ppm, though mine are 0 and I have gret growth in everything.

Acceptable levels for coral are higher than the sugested, but how much depends greatly on the coral.

 

[tmz]

I've been dosing vodka and vinegar for the last 5.5 years continuously on a dialy basis. Despite heavy feeding for a large fish and coral population ; PO4 is 0.02 to 0.04ppm (per hanah 713) and NO3 is 0.2 to 1ppm per salifert in the mixed reef. Nuisance algae is not an issue.

This thread may of interest for those considering vodka dosing or other forms of organic carbon dosing:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2134105&highlight=organic+carbon+dosing

 

[tmz]

All living things need phosphate and nitrogen along with other elements. Undetectable levels are often too low. For my mixed reef the levels noted above support vibrant corals.

Ethanol is hydrophylic (binds to water) and miscible( spreads out in solution) ,it does not skim out ;the bacteria it feeds do and take the nutrients they use with them.

 

[Sk8r]

I have a tank with a eight-year-old and mucky sump, and some rock that has had phosphate issues---plus a skimmer that has lazed along drawing out weak tea-colored skimmate. Dosing with vinegar has improved things markedly. The skimmate is now extremely dark, mucky stuff, and the lps coral is seeming to like it: it's budding from old established heads, not just dividing, but producing new heads from down on the sides of the skeleton.

 

[tmz]

The acetate and the bacteria may be improving the food web as well as reducing the nitrogen and phosphate levels. I'd expect to see more sponge growth over the coming months.

 

[Louis1959]

All living things need phosphate and nitrogen along with other elements. Undetectable levels are often too low. For my mixed reef the levels noted above support vibrant corals.

Ethanol is hydrophylic (binds to water) and miscible( spreads out in solution) ,it does not skim out ;the bacteria it feeds do and take the nutrients they use with them.

Tom,

Interesting response. Very much in line with an article I have been reading.

So, I do not have any "REEF" life as of yet. As posted earlier, I have several fish in the tank. Which my wife will probably give me a hard time about eliminating any. But the Foxface and cardinal will definitely be going. I am hoping I can keep everyone else.

Here is my question to everyone.

What test kits are you all using for testing low range Phosphates and Nitrates? I have heard that the API is not so reliable or accurate for Phosphates. Can I get everyone's preference. I am trying the best I can here w/o hurting any creatures.

Thanks and best regards everyone,
Lou

 

[whosurcaddie]

The Hanna phosphate test kit is a good one for PO4. I use salifert with good results.

 

[tmz]

I use the Salifert or api test for nitrates and the 713 hanah coloriimeter for PO4.

 

[whosurcaddie]

Just wanted to add that I agree with TMZ nitrate and phos levels at absolute zero aren't ideal. I recently had to dose calcium nitrate to raise my nitrate levels from 0 to 5ppm.

Just wanted to let you know you don't need to completely bottom out those numbers to have a clean system.