Volcano club
- Thread starter tom obrecht
- Start date
Reefaquariumnut
Premium Member
I did not measure how much air the pump is pulling...unless I get the new venturi, diffuser plate, and needle wheel there is no point of going any further. I know for sure the current setup is not going to work.
tom obrecht
Active member
I haven't posted here for a while but it looks like things have gone from bad to worse. I feel bad for all who are involved. I hope those of you trying to come up with a solution for these skimmers succeed. I'm sure someone (with more knowledge and patience than me) will eventually make is functional like we were all promised by Spazz. Good luck!
Hope you will get it..... but if not , you can try some easy mod to increase the air without big expenses :
1. take out the bubble plate , this will increase more flow & air .
2. you can get from Aquatic Eco piece of mesh the PF4 and to mod mesh on the impeller it's not big deal and it will increase your air you may will need to play with the intake to.
this steps you can do alone and will not cost you more then $40 i am pretty sure you will get a better result then you have right now and from the picture on your skimmer i see that the total air very poor on this body .
there is other option and it's to make a different pin wheel to your pump and you can do it with CNC services but you will need to get a temporary skimmer till they will copy your pin wheel.
Again i hope that Spazz will help you to solve those problem but if not you can try to modify this toy (if you handy) to let it work well.
the last things i was doing it's to change the skimmer body for con shape because this can cost a lot more and you never sure if this pump with the same impeller will give the optimum result for that mod , and you can buy or get 2 cheap MSX/Octopus 300, Reeflo that can do the job.... or you can build other one with less cost and all this option will skim your system better then what you have right now..... , but if you will not find any other option and you will think to go on that mod (con shape) or diffrent toy then send me PM i may can help with that figureout that the con shape will cost a lot becuase of the diameter of the skimmer body.
I wish that Spazz will help you to fix this issue even if he quit.... it realy hurt to see this big toy not working well.
Good Luck
Klaus Jansen
.Registered Member
Reefaquariumnut....
the last option was the best for Spazz : underground Base, after Cylinder (30 % ) and 50 % Cone last way, 20 % neck. Thats the best Idea for him.
A 100 % Cone is not the best idea.... to many turbulences....
Hahn... can you draw this ?
regards...Klaus
lvpd186
Reefing in NE
Klaus,
If I understand correctly where you are going, if the pump is basically moved up to where there is less head pressure the pump may preform better (Kind of like making the base where the water comes in taller)?
Mavgi,
What if the bubble plate had more openings made or if the bubble chamber was made taller? I like the idea of adding some mesh to the pinwheel. I know that the mesh-wheels can pull a lot of air (I have a BM250). I also thought it might be worth the time to look at the pinwheel used by reeflo (and the gold motor). I don't know if they use a stock one or not but those skimmers seem to work great from what I've been told.
If I understand correctly where you are going, if the pump is basically moved up to where there is less head pressure the pump may preform better (Kind of like making the base where the water comes in taller)?
Mavgi,
What if the bubble plate had more openings made or if the bubble chamber was made taller? I like the idea of adding some mesh to the pinwheel. I know that the mesh-wheels can pull a lot of air (I have a BM250). I also thought it might be worth the time to look at the pinwheel used by reeflo (and the gold motor). I don't know if they use a stock one or not but those skimmers seem to work great from what I've been told.
hahnmeister
In Memoriam
It is interesting talking theory with you Klaus.
With regards to cone, I think you are correct that a pure cone can cause too much turbulence... but that is IF the waterline is high in the body, like it is now. The main idea is to lower the waterline so that rather than having bubbles in 'free rising', they end up not going too far before they hit a higher bubble density/foam head and start stacking... something a much lower body volume affords. Rather than having the foam head start up in the neck
(which I agree, then there would be some turbulence problems), the foam should start much lower. This way, the bubbles wouldnt be rising for that long or bring that much turbulence with them... simply put, with a high enough air intake, you actually eliminate the turbulence that the cone wouldn't handle (possibly contribute to?) too well.
Im thinking that either a cone shape that is kept tall, but is force fed more than 4000lph (like 6000+ to push that waterline down into the body more) is good, or making it something like only 18" tall might be the other method... 18" tall would put very little back-pressure on the air intake, and combined with an impeller with more pin density, the air intake might hit 4000lph or more with that dart. This would also mean a new venturi is needed. The inserts I have seen at Tom's are pretty large... 1.30-1.40" in diameter. In my personal opinion, that isnt enough restriction to accelerate the water enough to educt enough air (a weak venturi). Something more like 1" is more like it... but that might be too restricted for this motor, esp with the current impeller. But the main idea is that with such a low cone, you wouldnt have to force feed, and maybe get over 4000lph... and the bubbles wouldnt be rising for more than say, 6" before they start stacking so the turbulence is kept down. Right now, yes, the bubbles are rising freely from the plate... going 2-3' before they slow down, which really causes some turbulence up top... unless you are one of the people who is force feeding enough to lower the water-bubble line something massive. As a bubble rises, if it can go through a gradual increase in bubble density (rather than a sudden one at the top from body to neck), it will be slowed down in a very gentle manner... pressing up on bubbles above it. But yeah... you need the air density top play with then.
With regards to cone, I think you are correct that a pure cone can cause too much turbulence... but that is IF the waterline is high in the body, like it is now. The main idea is to lower the waterline so that rather than having bubbles in 'free rising', they end up not going too far before they hit a higher bubble density/foam head and start stacking... something a much lower body volume affords. Rather than having the foam head start up in the neck
(which I agree, then there would be some turbulence problems), the foam should start much lower. This way, the bubbles wouldnt be rising for that long or bring that much turbulence with them... simply put, with a high enough air intake, you actually eliminate the turbulence that the cone wouldn't handle (possibly contribute to?) too well.
Im thinking that either a cone shape that is kept tall, but is force fed more than 4000lph (like 6000+ to push that waterline down into the body more) is good, or making it something like only 18" tall might be the other method... 18" tall would put very little back-pressure on the air intake, and combined with an impeller with more pin density, the air intake might hit 4000lph or more with that dart. This would also mean a new venturi is needed. The inserts I have seen at Tom's are pretty large... 1.30-1.40" in diameter. In my personal opinion, that isnt enough restriction to accelerate the water enough to educt enough air (a weak venturi). Something more like 1" is more like it... but that might be too restricted for this motor, esp with the current impeller. But the main idea is that with such a low cone, you wouldnt have to force feed, and maybe get over 4000lph... and the bubbles wouldnt be rising for more than say, 6" before they start stacking so the turbulence is kept down. Right now, yes, the bubbles are rising freely from the plate... going 2-3' before they slow down, which really causes some turbulence up top... unless you are one of the people who is force feeding enough to lower the water-bubble line something massive. As a bubble rises, if it can go through a gradual increase in bubble density (rather than a sudden one at the top from body to neck), it will be slowed down in a very gentle manner... pressing up on bubbles above it. But yeah... you need the air density top play with then.
Reefaquariumnut
Premium Member
Thats exactly what I thought...If Stan's skimmer is 24" and 60" high then that would mean mine would be better off like 18" and 48" high...The venturi would need to be modified and the needle wheel customized (more pins). BUT, the whole point was to have this stuff figured out in the first place. There is no guarantee that the modifications will take the skimmer to a new level either. Kinda like Scott did, we are all guessing what should/could happen. It will still need testing and adjusting to be done after the mods.
the same high of the chamber even with more hole still will restrict the air flow.
taller chamber can be better since the pump will pull on narrow column more easy the flow and the bubbles will be closer to the top. (it's also depend on how this pump perform , i never test this type of pump and i can't sure about that). it's will be simillar as the ATI or the BK with the long column work but different high...
this mod also can be easy getting a long plastic container and to fit it on the existing column (chamber) and to take out the diffuser plate.
yes all this test need to adjust and to see how it's perform but they are not expensive and can be move quick and without to change the skimmer body..... and IMO with those test the skimmer will work better then how it's working now.
Reefaquariumnut
Premium Member
But the main point is "it is what it is"...If we keep the body and engine the same, what are the options?? Needle wheel, diffuser plate, venturi, and air input...Thats all I consider changing. If we start changing more than that, we might as well change everything and start over.
Sorry , but itry to help hope you understand that .
let me ask you question can you get needle wheel ?
even if you get the Reeflo needle wheel your skimmer have different diemnsion then the reeflo (bigger body) you not going to pull the same air..... now if you will put on this one Mash it will work the same as the Reeflo needle wheel even better and you can see in $30 cost if this help or not....
buy 10-15" plastic container how much it cost....?
put it on your chamber it's like you cut your skimmer body.... see if this work ...
so you pay 40-$60 and you can see if the mesh mod not working i can tell you the Reeflo needle wheel will not be better if it's working good you can always custom one...
the plastic chamber help then you can by piece of acrylic tube and change what you have....
now if all this simple test not work , the only things i think that can work it's to mount on the same size skimmer body (if you don't want to cut it) external pump 4 aquab 2001 , (Sicce not good for external...) or like the Sedra pump that run on the WM skimmer (they have good impeller) this will be better then the air pump you use but also the total watt will be more.....
This why i suggest to start with the cheap mod stuff at this way you can see without big expenses if this pump on the same skimmer body work with better pin wheel ...... or with different mod inside the skimmer and if not you will need or to trim the high or to add more pumps (unless Scot will find better solution)
hahnmeister
In Memoriam
Perhaps it would be better to settle on a motor setup and work from there. Some people here might be looking at a dual dart solution, a higher speed motor on the existing volute, force feeding (or not) with either an Alita 40 or Alita 60 (or 80), with who knows how much bleeding off, and with who knows which needlewheel, or meshwheel for that matter. Being that you pretty much have to base the skimmer around the pump... that would be a good place to start.
At that:
-How much, with a higher density pinwheel or meshwheel, can a single dart motor handle if force fed?
-With a different needlewheel or meshwheel impeller, how much air can the pump produce on its own at minimal depth? What size venturi would be ideal then as well??? Depending on the impeller and how much water flow the motor needs to keep from having a horrible electronic profile, could the venturi be reduced down to 1" or even smaller? 7/8"? 3/4"? I wonder what the venturi diameter is on the ReefFlo's for instance... that could be a clue.
I was free-handing specs for the body based on Klaus's percentages... you must be talking about keeping the body, cone, and neck about 36" tall or more Klaus... otherwise those percentages dont work out too well. At 36" or more... they look alright. I think the only place where you and I differ is based on the presumed air intake of the pump. The reason I say just go straight for the cone is because even at 4000lph, an 18" diameter body is a bit much... so one way to think of it is that you are looking at one reducer just above the bubble plate to reduce the body diameter down to 14" or 12" in diameter, then cylinder body, then another reducer to go down to 8" and then the neck. This is alot of messing around... By going with a straight cone from the bottom to the neck, you will be reducing from 18" to 8" (the total reduction would be 10" in diameter), and that 12-14" diameter (if a cylinder) would be hit exactly half way up the cone's total height. I was free-handing out some specs today with regards to the body shapes, and Im starting to think that such a cone body swap out could be 18" at the base (flanged), 8" at the neck to mate with the twist-lock, and only about 14" tall! That sounds stubby, I know... but Im serious. That might be a dramatic cost reduction as well compared to a 30-36" cone, and I really dont see any disadvantage... perhaps a slight advantage. As an 'equal and opposite' method, simply pushing that 'bubble line' lower in the skimmer keeps the cone from being as turbulent. The 'ideal' would be to have the bubbles start stacking just a few inches above the bubble plate... this eliminates turbulence further up.
At that:
-How much, with a higher density pinwheel or meshwheel, can a single dart motor handle if force fed?
-With a different needlewheel or meshwheel impeller, how much air can the pump produce on its own at minimal depth? What size venturi would be ideal then as well??? Depending on the impeller and how much water flow the motor needs to keep from having a horrible electronic profile, could the venturi be reduced down to 1" or even smaller? 7/8"? 3/4"? I wonder what the venturi diameter is on the ReefFlo's for instance... that could be a clue.
I was free-handing specs for the body based on Klaus's percentages... you must be talking about keeping the body, cone, and neck about 36" tall or more Klaus... otherwise those percentages dont work out too well. At 36" or more... they look alright. I think the only place where you and I differ is based on the presumed air intake of the pump. The reason I say just go straight for the cone is because even at 4000lph, an 18" diameter body is a bit much... so one way to think of it is that you are looking at one reducer just above the bubble plate to reduce the body diameter down to 14" or 12" in diameter, then cylinder body, then another reducer to go down to 8" and then the neck. This is alot of messing around... By going with a straight cone from the bottom to the neck, you will be reducing from 18" to 8" (the total reduction would be 10" in diameter), and that 12-14" diameter (if a cylinder) would be hit exactly half way up the cone's total height. I was free-handing out some specs today with regards to the body shapes, and Im starting to think that such a cone body swap out could be 18" at the base (flanged), 8" at the neck to mate with the twist-lock, and only about 14" tall! That sounds stubby, I know... but Im serious. That might be a dramatic cost reduction as well compared to a 30-36" cone, and I really dont see any disadvantage... perhaps a slight advantage. As an 'equal and opposite' method, simply pushing that 'bubble line' lower in the skimmer keeps the cone from being as turbulent. The 'ideal' would be to have the bubbles start stacking just a few inches above the bubble plate... this eliminates turbulence further up.
Klaus Jansen
.Registered Member
@Hahn,
a very interesting conversation... sorry, to difficult for my bad english lenguage...
The Performance of a right nozzle, the number of holes and Hole-Diameter in a Bubble plate, the Diameter of the Pinwheel, the Pins, the high of Pins, the space of the Pins, the stuffmaterial of the Pins, the Skimmerbody, the skimmer-neck, the diameter of the neck... all this Points make a good Skimmer.
You have a perfect Pump and the Skimmer is running good, okay, not perfect, or he can make good skimmate. You have a bad Pump or Pumpperformance, you destroyed a good Skimmer. One of the most important Part on a Skimmer is the Pump.... I see, the Craftmanship of the Volcano-Skimmers are great. Many perfect details. Sorry, Spazz, i now, we are Competitors, or i want a little help you. I dont have Problems with you...
Forget the Idea with a Meshwheel and High-Speed Pumps. Plastic-Meshwheels was very quick destroyed by rpm´s more as 3500 rpm... All High-speed Pumps can running alone with Pin-Wheels or Becket-nozzle, names injector. The Idea of a Highspeed Pump is not bad, or it is much more difficult for found the best Performance by Highspeed. The waterflow is very high, by speeds more as 4000 rpm. Best Skimmerperformance is the i ratio of water to air. Agood ratio is 1-1 or 1-2. I think, spazz must looking first the perfect Performance of the Pump, before he change the Skimmerbody. Make a Pinwheel, with much more Pins. Very important : the distance between the pins, should only 1-1.5 mm in size. Make it, Spazz and thou shalt a big surprise
I think, the Problems of the Volcano-Pump are only the Pinwheels and Nozzle.... is the Skimmer very high, ( in Germany we say Rocketskimmers) is it not possible for make the same Pumpperformance as little under-table Skimmer. Its a different Technologie. So the Rocket-Skimmers in Germany are dead. 50-70 cm Skimmers are pull a better Skimmate out, as 200 cm Rocketskimmers. Reduce the Total-High of the Skimmer and you have a better Skimmate.
Good Luck...
regards..Klaus
a very interesting conversation... sorry, to difficult for my bad english lenguage...
The Performance of a right nozzle, the number of holes and Hole-Diameter in a Bubble plate, the Diameter of the Pinwheel, the Pins, the high of Pins, the space of the Pins, the stuffmaterial of the Pins, the Skimmerbody, the skimmer-neck, the diameter of the neck... all this Points make a good Skimmer.
You have a perfect Pump and the Skimmer is running good, okay, not perfect, or he can make good skimmate. You have a bad Pump or Pumpperformance, you destroyed a good Skimmer. One of the most important Part on a Skimmer is the Pump.... I see, the Craftmanship of the Volcano-Skimmers are great. Many perfect details. Sorry, Spazz, i now, we are Competitors, or i want a little help you. I dont have Problems with you...
Forget the Idea with a Meshwheel and High-Speed Pumps. Plastic-Meshwheels was very quick destroyed by rpm´s more as 3500 rpm... All High-speed Pumps can running alone with Pin-Wheels or Becket-nozzle, names injector. The Idea of a Highspeed Pump is not bad, or it is much more difficult for found the best Performance by Highspeed. The waterflow is very high, by speeds more as 4000 rpm. Best Skimmerperformance is the i ratio of water to air. Agood ratio is 1-1 or 1-2. I think, spazz must looking first the perfect Performance of the Pump, before he change the Skimmerbody. Make a Pinwheel, with much more Pins. Very important : the distance between the pins, should only 1-1.5 mm in size. Make it, Spazz and thou shalt a big surprise
I think, the Problems of the Volcano-Pump are only the Pinwheels and Nozzle.... is the Skimmer very high, ( in Germany we say Rocketskimmers) is it not possible for make the same Pumpperformance as little under-table Skimmer. Its a different Technologie. So the Rocket-Skimmers in Germany are dead. 50-70 cm Skimmers are pull a better Skimmate out, as 200 cm Rocketskimmers. Reduce the Total-High of the Skimmer and you have a better Skimmate.
Good Luck...
regards..Klaus
Herpervet
New member
Klaus,
So you suggest we reduce the heigth of the skimmers significantly.
Here is an idea I am looking at: Adding 4 to 6 recirculating needlewheel pumps.
I have considered feeding each from my existing Alita air pump so I could place them low in the skimmer body.
So if I am not mistaken you are suggesting that it would be better to shorten the body. Is this correct?
In this case I would be mounting these pumps higher up the collumn and simply wasting the lower section of the skimmer.
It seems counter intuitive.
But if it works I don't really care.
I can't help but think that the shorter skimmers produce better skimmate simply because they are fighing less head pressure and therefore pull more air. (given that they are using the same pumps)
Do you believe there is another reason that the shorter skimmers function better (less turbulance?)
So you suggest we reduce the heigth of the skimmers significantly.
Here is an idea I am looking at: Adding 4 to 6 recirculating needlewheel pumps.
I have considered feeding each from my existing Alita air pump so I could place them low in the skimmer body.
So if I am not mistaken you are suggesting that it would be better to shorten the body. Is this correct?
In this case I would be mounting these pumps higher up the collumn and simply wasting the lower section of the skimmer.
It seems counter intuitive.
But if it works I don't really care.
I can't help but think that the shorter skimmers produce better skimmate simply because they are fighing less head pressure and therefore pull more air. (given that they are using the same pumps)
Do you believe there is another reason that the shorter skimmers function better (less turbulance?)
hahnmeister
In Memoriam
ROFL... 'Rocket Skimmers' :lol:
Would those be German V2 rockets, or something that was made after 'Operation Paperclip'? Lol... (for those who dont get it, see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket ) No wonder we see all these 'Rocket Skimmers' over here!
I agree with you though. I think many here think too much about the time that the bubble travels up to the 'waterline' so they make very tall skimmers, where some of these other 'high-efficiency' makes work more with what happens higher up in the skimmer... make so much air that the waterline drops lower and lower. It does give me an insight into what you are saying about 100% cone, and why you went with curved cones (es hat zu tun mit der Wasserlinie: mit dem 100% Kegel, Sie müssen dafür sorgen, dass die Wasserlinie, knapp über dem Diffusor Platte.)
^^^ how did I do? Its easier for me to read than write.
Klaus Jansen
.Registered Member
@Mavgi...
what you know everything?
I do not want to talk about our developments in this Thread.....:beer:
@ Hahn... wow...you can speak German ? V2 ? Long time ago....
@Herpervet..
yes,.. i think so... we building more as 20 years Rocketskimmers and today,we stopped these constructions. The Energyconsuption is so much higher, as reduce-hight-Skimmers. It is not important make the skimmers high. It is nice for the eye, or bad for the pockets. I learning this Point very hard....
Okay, the idea of 4-6 recirculating Pumps is not bad, or i am not a friend of many Pumps hang on the Skimmerbody. So you must then make clean 4-6 Pumps. I think, the best way was 2 x Laguna-Pumps with Needelwheels and 3-4000 Liter Airintake.... The best way is inject the Water/Airmix near of the boddem. The Problem by Lagunas :, he can not go with High Backpressure, so for starting look a new Skimmerperformance, he can bulding the Pumps, near of the middle of the Column, or a little down.... This is on of the ways, for connect the Pump with the Skimmer.
One of the important laws for a good Skimmerperformance is reduce the Turbulences. You have many Turbulences in the Skimmercolumn, you become never a good Skimmate. The turbulences destroyed the Foam in the Neck.
regards..Klaus
what you know everything?
I do not want to talk about our developments in this Thread.....:beer: @ Hahn... wow...you can speak German ? V2 ? Long time ago....
@Herpervet..
yes,.. i think so... we building more as 20 years Rocketskimmers and today,we stopped these constructions. The Energyconsuption is so much higher, as reduce-hight-Skimmers. It is not important make the skimmers high. It is nice for the eye, or bad for the pockets. I learning this Point very hard....
Okay, the idea of 4-6 recirculating Pumps is not bad, or i am not a friend of many Pumps hang on the Skimmerbody. So you must then make clean 4-6 Pumps. I think, the best way was 2 x Laguna-Pumps with Needelwheels and 3-4000 Liter Airintake.... The best way is inject the Water/Airmix near of the boddem. The Problem by Lagunas :, he can not go with High Backpressure, so for starting look a new Skimmerperformance, he can bulding the Pumps, near of the middle of the Column, or a little down.... This is on of the ways, for connect the Pump with the Skimmer.
One of the important laws for a good Skimmerperformance is reduce the Turbulences. You have many Turbulences in the Skimmercolumn, you become never a good Skimmate. The turbulences destroyed the Foam in the Neck.
regards..Klaus
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hahnmeister
In Memoriam
@ Herpervet,
Hey, Im thinking only a 14" tall body would do it as well (Im with Klaus on this one 100%)... going from 18" base to 8" neck in 14" of height: thats still less than (cotan 5/14)... 20 degrees... with only a couple inches above the plate (the plate is just below that flange), and the whole 14" to the 8" neck that looks to be a good 8" high, thats still a very substantial skimmer but with much less turbulence (from plate to top is still something like 2 feet). Rather than bubbles spending their time speeding up to the top, they are stacking in the 'head' where they stay around much longer/slow down. But you need enough air intake to make this possible.
... just read what Klaus said: agree 100%. Too much time rushing to the top usually means a big crash when you get there. Granted, a bubble will reach a maximum velocity based on its diameter... but still... much better to 'stack' them rather than let them get out of control on the way up. All that height can work against you (you need a large counter current flow to slow them, but now you are adding water turbulence too). I used to love tall skimmers because of all the time it allowed the bubble to float up to the top... not so much anymore. I see a large foamy head as more useful.
@ Klaus... what do you think about just a 14" (355mm) tall cone between the bubble plate and neck?
Hey, Im thinking only a 14" tall body would do it as well (Im with Klaus on this one 100%)... going from 18" base to 8" neck in 14" of height: thats still less than (cotan 5/14)... 20 degrees... with only a couple inches above the plate (the plate is just below that flange), and the whole 14" to the 8" neck that looks to be a good 8" high, thats still a very substantial skimmer but with much less turbulence (from plate to top is still something like 2 feet). Rather than bubbles spending their time speeding up to the top, they are stacking in the 'head' where they stay around much longer/slow down. But you need enough air intake to make this possible.
... just read what Klaus said: agree 100%. Too much time rushing to the top usually means a big crash when you get there. Granted, a bubble will reach a maximum velocity based on its diameter... but still... much better to 'stack' them rather than let them get out of control on the way up. All that height can work against you (you need a large counter current flow to slow them, but now you are adding water turbulence too). I used to love tall skimmers because of all the time it allowed the bubble to float up to the top... not so much anymore. I see a large foamy head as more useful.
@ Klaus... what do you think about just a 14" (355mm) tall cone between the bubble plate and neck?
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