Water changes: mix or natural seawater

flfireman1

flfireman1

Wrasse aficionado
I was wondering what most of you here use for water changes for your aquariums. Do you mix your own saltwater or do you buy the natural seawater from the LFS?

What are the advantages disadvantages of both? Is there a major difference between one or the other? Im assuming mix would be cheaper in the long run???
 
i use synthetic (mixed) its not cheaper though...look around ask the pet stores what they use and inspect their fish. it seems here in dade the pet stores use ocean water in broward they seem to mix their own. big als for instance mixes their own.
 
This topic comes up once a month if not more on here. Same responses. Some of us use NSW from the LFS, a some of us don't trust it for fear of importing something bad into our tanks, and then we rebuttle about nothing bad happening over a decade of NSW water changes, and then someone says "yea but what if" and then we just reference to Paul B and how he's been doing water changes with Long Island water for 35 years with no problem, then he comes and talks about it, and then the discussion dies out with some off-topic discussion between him and another forum member here.

Then end. :)
 
Ignoring discussions of which one is "better" for the tank, there's the purely practical question of logistics.

Mixing - With an RO/DI unit at home, you can make it as you need, as much as you need, or as little as you need. Drawback is that in an emergency, you're limited to the production rate of your RO/DI if you don't have a large storage reservoir.

NSW - Either collect it yourself and lug home containers full of water, or go to the LFS and lug home containers full of water. Alternatively, you can use a delivery service, but to be cost effective this requires a large holding tank for water delivery.

Personally, I don't like lugging around containers full of water, and I don't have a holding tank to have water delivered to. So it's an RO/DI and synthetic saltwater for me.
 
Since I don't have 35g brute cans, or any big mixing station in general, I have to do it all by lugging around jugs anyway.

What's the price breakdown of say.... 25g (20%ish) bi-weekly for making your own salt water, over a year of getting NSW from the LFS for $0.50 a gallon?

I'm just trying to see how often you've got to do it before it becomes more price effective (even though you said its from more the convenience aspect, which I would agree in certain locational situations.)
 
lfs i work at switched from mixing to NSW knoticed some very good results in the sps tank
altho this may be because of other things
 
26 waterchanges x ($0.50 x 25 = $12.5) so $325

26 waterchanges x (SeaChem Marine Salt [500ppmCA/10dkh/1400ppmMG] 150g [3x50g tubs for $36+15=]$51/150g = $0.34/gallon for just the salt.
--> 650g/yr *$0.34 = $221 to W/C with SeaChem Marine Salt (best numbers IMO from: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1287118 )

So net savings = $104/year if you do Bi-Weekly Water Changes with SeaChem Marine Salt versus paying $0.50 per gallon of NSW from an LFS.

Hope that helps someone other than me see the savings. (and tells me that I shouldn't feel so bad since I don't do bi-weekly waterchanges like I'm supposed to anyway :p )
 
Reefwreak, don't forget the cost of a ro/ri unit and maintenance.

ATTR, I agree that when I started using NSW, everything in my tank perked up. I am no expert but I would think that there are alot of "natural" additives in NSW that are very beneficial to the corals as opposed to ro/di and limited additions with some brands of salt.

For me, being close to the inlet, it's very convenient and easier to get NSW.
 
I didn't really figure in the cost of an RO/DI unit because I've already got it for my FW topoffs.

The other added costs to me would be 2x$25 for 2 32g rubbermaid trash cans (that my parents will inevatibly tell me to throw away because even on the side of the house, they're too unsightly), the rollers for the bottoms (where do you find them? HD/Lowes?), and I've got most of the tubing already. I might need a bigger pump to get the water out of the tank though, as I don't think an MJ1200 has the head pressure to get over the top of a rubbermaid tank.

So assume another... $50+$20+$30 = $100.

Then you're saving $104 per year, so your first year of savings, assuming that you've got the RO/DI already, and the the price of water is neglegable, is negated there. So you've got to plan on doing lots of waterchanges, multiple years in a row....

That's where it makes sense for people who have larger tanks or do frequent water changes to do their own water changes. I change my water... maybe bi-monthly if i'm in the mood, often longer. Also if you've got a smaller tank, it becomes less cost-efficient since you'll have to buy smaller quantites of everything, and smaller quantities are marginally more expensive per unit, if that makes sense.

Meh, I'll just pay $0.50 a gallon at the LFS for NSW :)

Oh, I forgot about Ro/DI maintenence. Change the filters what, once every 2 years? So assume 2 carbon block filters @ $12 a piece, and an RO membrane @ $30 a piece, plus the DI which I'm totally grabbing random numbers at $12 as well for a cartridge worth, and you've already got another (30+24+12=66/2 for every 2 years = $33 more per year) $33 per year in RODI maintenence to add to it. So you're really only saving about $70 per year by doing your own, and again that's consisting of regular 25g water changes, bi-weekly.

For me, it doesn't make sense. But I applaud those of you who are consistent enough to do water changes that frequently, and you are rewarded with yearly savings from that.
 
I don't think you're supposed to store it long, but I've stored it for a few months in the garage before using it. I think the best use date is right when you get it from the LFS or ocean, so the corals eat whatevers in it, versus the old philosophy of keeping in the dark cool for weeks to kill off everything.

If I store it in the hot garage, I just either add water to it to replace some of the evaporated water (it still evaporates because almost no container is perfectly sealed) or just put it in the tank, since over the months of removing corals and doing this or that my salinity goes down and gets replaced with RO/DI so it all balances out in the end.
 
i have been in dispute with this since i have moved down here, im still not sure which one is better. I have yet to find the guts to switch to NSW. I have been using tropic marin and its awesome. Though i still pay .25 cents/g for RO water from the lfs. hmm, maybe its time to switch.
 
Bottom line is salt mix is the "safe" option.
I say "safe" because there is almost no chance of introducing any malignant "surprises" into your tank from a lab-made salt mix.
Unless there is a major screw-up on a batch at the factory, this is the most reliable and consistant mix of salt and minerals from month to month, year to year, etc.

On the otherhand...

NSW is as close to "mother nature", natural ocean composition as you can get so there may be "hidden" benefits that aren't accounted for in lab-made salt mixes.

Of course the downside is all the variables that can throw a monkey wrench into the equation, especially if the water is collected locally.
Locally we have an extremely poor water quality, hense the severe die-off of 75-95% of Florida's coral reefs.
We dump several million gallons of partially treated sewage (nutrients) directly into the ocean off of Dade, Broward and Palm Beach every day which results in massive algae blooms, shifts in larval populations, and wild fluctuations in ppm for a huge host of excess nutrients depending on where and at what time (tides) the NSW is collected.

I have had 2 separate tank crashes (algae, bacterial) and an introduction of a foreign macro algae which completely overran a nano to the point of choking out and killing some corals due to locally collected NSW.
Since then I have stuck to salt mixes and LFS premade SW.
I can see the look on Chris' face right now... Chill, I'm getting to it.

Now comes the funny part... (feel free to laugh at me, I can take it.), regardless of my past experiences I am currently using the NSW from A.T.T.R.'s store that he mentioned above and have been very happy with both the results and the "lowest in town" price even tho I have to lug home 40-50gals every couple of days.
(I love having a pickup truck.)
Of course, all this advice and experience is coming from the guy who uses city of Tamarac tap water for top offs :p, so take it for what it's worth.
LOL

If I had to say anything about collecting NSW, it would be to do it well away (5 miles +) from shore where you won't get such a heavy concentration of sewage and fertilizer, pesticide, herbacide, fungicide rich run-off from our lawns and soil.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11736738#post11736738 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by loyalrogue
Bottom line is salt mix is the "safe" option.
I say "safe" because there is almost no chance of introducing any malignant "surprises" into your tank from a lab-made salt mix.
Unless there is a major screw-up on a batch at the factory, this is the most reliable and consistant mix of salt and minerals from month to month, year to year, etc.

On the otherhand...

NSW is as close to "mother nature", natural ocean composition as you can get so there may be "hidden" benefits that aren't accounted for in lab-made salt mixes.

Of course the downside is all the variables that can throw a monkey wrench into the equation, especially if the water is collected locally.
Locally we have an extremely poor water quality, hense the severe die-off of 75-95% of Florida's coral reefs.
We dump several million gallons of partially treated sewage (nutrients) directly into the ocean off of Dade, Broward and Palm Beach every day which results in massive algae blooms, shifts in larval populations, and wild fluctuations in ppm for a huge host of excess nutrients depending on where and at what time (tides) the NSW is collected.

I have had 2 separate tank crashes (algae, bacterial) and an introduction of a foreign macro algae which completely overran a nano to the point of choking out and killing some corals due to locally collected NSW.
Since then I have stuck to salt mixes and LFS premade SW.
I can see the look on Chris' face right now... Chill, I'm getting to it.

Now comes the funny part... (feel free to laugh at me, I can take it.), regardless of my past experiences I am currently using the NSW from A.T.T.R.'s store that he mentioned above and have been very happy with both the results and the "lowest in town" price even tho I have to lug home 40-50gals every couple of days.
(I love having a pickup truck.)
Of course, all this advice and experience is coming from the guy who uses city of Tamarac tap water for top offs :p, so take it for what it's worth.
LOL

If I had to say anything about collecting NSW, it would be to do it well away (5 miles +) from shore where you won't get such a heavy concentration of sewage and fertilizer, pesticide, herbacide, fungicide rich run-off from our lawns and soil.
Click to expand...
:p :p :p
 
Guys, $100/yr equals less than 27.4 cents a day or 27.3 cents per leap year. i'd vote for ease of work load. there are an infinite amount of tanks that use sea salt exclusively successfully, so i'd say the opinion of nsw having other benefits is a mute point. I say choose either option if you think that's the easiest.
 
This study has demonstrated that the artificial sea water made using some common and popular commercial artificial salt water mixes is toxic to sea urchin larvae using a variant of a standard bioassay. Such water will also likely have effects on other animals. This study also showed that some artificial sea water mixes produced water that could support larval development as well as could natural seawater. The use of such "good" artificial sea water will promote the health of coral reef organisms. Coupled with a vigorous program of nutrient and trace metal export (See Shimek, 2002e), use of these salts should go a long way to prevent the build up of potentially toxic trace metals in coral reef tanks.

Both of the salts that had good larval survivability are readily available at reasonable prices. The Crystal Sea Marinemix-Bioassay Formulation is not commonly available to hobbyists, being designed and marketed for bioassay laboratories. However, it is available online from various vendors. The Crystal Sea Marinemix - Bioassay Formulation is essentially the same as standard Crystal Sea Marinemix which it differs from only in lacking the dechlorinator found in the latter salt (R. Spellman, pers. comm.). Standard Crystal Sea Marinemix and Bio-Sea Marinemix salts are widely available.
 
That article didn't really say that synthetic was better, it just said that of the synthetic, none of the hobby brands should be used. Only the labratory grade salt. Even then, the lab grade salts were still significantly higher in marginal quantity of heavy metals that are toxic to aquatic life (Copper, Aluminum, etc) than ocean water was.

If it makes you feel better, you could run ocean water through a UV for a day with a filter sock somewhere in the mix, and kill the bacteria and small creatures, and capture most of what died and what was too large to be killed with UV in the filter sock. I wouldn't do that, as in my opinion, the worst thing you have to be careful for in oceanic water is pollution in the form of phosphates, ammonia, and other toxins. The life that comes in the NSW is a good point in my mind, that it feeds the fish and corals, and if you're really luck, it seeds the bacteria populations in the water column and some pods into the rocks and sand.

Again, there's no right answer. Just whether you want to kill your tank's inhabitants with heavy metal poisoning using synthetic sea salt, or have them strangle with toxins carried into the tank in dirty seawater. Your choice :p

(totally kidding by the way. either way is effective, either way is best, depending on your preferences and convenience factors)
 
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