Water Changes

[wooden_reefer]

Re: Water Changes

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10829783#post10829783 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by oscarslr
Ok how often should i do water changes and how much water on a 125 gal 60 gal sump system during the cycle

If you are using uncured live rock to cycle, you may want to change some of the water during the earliest phase of the cycle when decay (ammonification) is peak (technically pre-cycle) so that ammonia level is not excessive for too long a period of time so that dieoff is not excessive.

Water change in the middle of the cycle makes no sense regardless, unless you actively moniter to maintain a desired moderate ammonia level. In the middle of a cycle (long after decay is completed) the bacteria population constantly increases, changing some water routinely in the middle of the cycle makes no sense.

_______________

The discussion on the undesirability of cycling with uncured live rock may not concern you now, if you have already started the cycle with uncured live rock, which you have not stated.

What are you using to cycle?

 

[Aquarist007]

I always thought it was adventageous to have a high level of ammonia during the cycling process. In this way the bacteria have to multiply to handle the bigger load-- this gives a greater number of bacteria to handle bigger bioloads after the tank has settled.
I don't mean to argue or challenge here--I am just curious is that is a misconception?

 

[wooden_reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10832048#post10832048 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by capn_hylinur
I always thought it was adventageous to have a high level of ammonia during the cycling process. In this way the bacteria have to multiply to handle the bigger load-- this gives a greater number of bacteria to handle bigger bioloads after the tank has settled.

So do I, but one should also weigh the fact that in a reef tank nitrification demand is not as high. Some people prefer the semblance to "nature".

But for a FO tank with large fish, absolutely. Several high peaks of ammonia is practically desirable during cycling. New tank syndrome, aka minicycle, is for the uninformed. After cycling for FO, my tank will be ready for whatever bioload all at once.

 

[wooden_reefer]

One really has to cope with the illogic when cycling with uncured live rock.

On one hand one designs to cause some dieoff, death of incidental livestock, to generate some ammonia to start the cycle. One the other hand, one is concerned about not killing too much incidental livestock (reducing biodiversity) by too much ammonia.

50% death is very good; 70% is too much. How does one accept the logic? Those that are killed by ammonia are likely pest; those that live after ammonia are desirable? How so?

The whole idea of cycling with uncured live rock is one money making fad, it seems to me.

Two groups of aquarists would readily and naturally take issue with cycling with uncured live rock.

First are those who started with uncured live rock but have allowed it to become dry and clean (away from the hobby for a year or two). When they resume the hobby, they don't have to spend another 100's of bucks to buy more uncured live rock to cycle. Just bacteria seed and ammonia to cycle, and then just a small amount of uncured live rock to renew biodiversity.

Second are those who use DIY rock to start with.

 

[ljosh]

I don't have much experience but what worked for me is cycling a DSB in the fuge with excessive amounts of fish food before adding the rock.

 

[wooden_reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10832924#post10832924 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ljosh
I don't have much experience but what worked for me is cycling a DSB in the fuge with excessive amounts of fish food before adding the rock.

Only the top part of a DSB is aerobic enough for nitrification.

A DSB is unlikely to have enough nitification capacity to handle a lot of uncured live rock. That is, to prevent ammonia from surging, IMO.

One has to have deliberately cycled enough of a medium, dead live rock, DIY live rock, wet-dry etc, to handle the ammonia from metabolism and dieoff from the uncured live rock.

 

[Toddrtrex]

I have always done WC when curing new live rock. I paid for all the life on there and I want to do my best to preserve it.

In fact I am curing about 45 lbs right now. I've done 3 water changes on it during the first week. Granted it is a little bit easier for me, since I have 3 other tanks running, I just use the water that I took out of those tanks. So in the end it didn't cost me any extra salt.

 

[wooden_reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10833140#post10833140 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Toddrtrex
I have always done WC when curing new live rock. I paid for all the life on there and I want to do my best to preserve it.

Yes, but why would you want to cure live rock at all?

Why wouldn't you place the new live rock a tank that has been thoroughly cycled already? Don't you think you would preserve more biodiversity on it by NOT curing it at all?

Why don't people "cure" corals? Buy ten corals and let five die, let the ammonia from the dead five corals cycle the tank, but just five but not seven. Let five coral live not just three.

That live rock can also serve as filter medium should not detract from that fact that live rock is also livestock, just that it has a dual function as incidental livestock and potential filter medium.

It is very easy to first cycle without live rock and then add the live rock, never to be cured, as livestock and gradually develop filtration capacity.

 

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10832225#post10832225 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wooden_reefer
One really has to cope with the illogic when cycling with uncured live rock.

On one hand one designs to cause some dieoff, death of incidental livestock, to generate some ammonia to start the cycle. One the other hand, one is concerned about not killing too much incidental livestock (reducing biodiversity) by too much ammonia.

50% death is very good; 70% is too much. How does one accept the logic? Those that are killed by ammonia are likely pest; those that live after ammonia are desirable? How so?

The whole idea of cycling with uncured live rock is one money making fad, it seems to me.

Two groups of aquarists would readily and naturally take issue with cycling with uncured live rock.

First are those who started with uncured live rock but have allowed it to become dry and clean (away from the hobby for a year or two). When they resume the hobby, they don't have to spend another 100's of bucks to buy more uncured live rock to cycle. Just bacteria seed and ammonia to cycle, and then just a small amount of uncured live rock to renew biodiversity.

Second are those who use DIY rock to start with.

I understand--thank you--but then one has to ask--why used uncurred rock in the first place?
If you purchase live rock that has been cured to the point where basically it has had a scrub off by the LFS----then you will still get some survival of organisms --and not an outrageous spike in ammonia.
If you want the diversity of inverts and bacteria--IMHO that should come later after you have stabilized your water parameters-----and quite easily accomplished with a refugium. --and by then you have learned how to properly set one up and accomplish this

 

[Toddrtrex]

Because I don't want to kill everything that is currently in that tank. There is no way that I would dump 45 # of uncured live rock into an already running tank. I don't see the point in stressing everything that is in the tank out that much.

And I don't see the logic of your second sentence. Placing it in a tank that has already been cycled wouldn't work, the amount of die off from the new live rock would be too great.

Think you are just trying to be argumentative with that 3rd sentence.

Never to be cured?

Edit, I was replying to wooden_reefer post and not capn_hylinur, knew I should have used the "quote" button.

 

[Aquarist007]

toddrtrex--are you referring to my post ??

 

[bmcq]

I hear a lot here about doing water changes to keep the levels to a minimum to try to preserve "life". I may be wrong, but if you first set up your tank with base rock (no life, just a base for your eventual "live" rock), a bare bottom or sand bed ( whatever your preference), a fully functional tank (to include tank, sump, skimmer, pumps, etc) you can still get a cycle using fish food or dried shrimp or whatever else you throw into your tank to get the beneficial bacteria you need started in your tank. This may be a longer process and you may have to be extra careful whenever you add something new to keep from repeating the cycle, but I would think you could build your system slowly and have less aggrevation in the long run. JMO.

 

[Aquarist007]

duh--sorry--todd---must be keying at the same time

 

[Aquarist007]

but honestly--how much life are you going to preserve for all the effort of working with uncurred live rock --that you can't get back latter with a refugium------and you take a chance with some undesirable hitch hikers.

the reason I buy quality reef rock is not because of the degree of live on it --rather it tends to be very porous and allow for the development of both aerobic and anerobic bacteria.

 

[WaterKeeper]

My good people. Doing BIG water changes during a cycle will not prolong it one minute. All the activity is going on with the fixed film bacteria and the ones in the water column are really not much help. Keeping the ammonia and other nasty things in curing water at resonable levels does much to provide for faster later stages in the new tank. Change it ofter and large.

 

[Aquarist007]

..........also doing alot of water changes isn't cheap.

 

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10834656#post10834656 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by WaterKeeper
My good people. Doing BIG water changes during a cycle will not prolong it one minute. All the activity is going on with the fixed film bacteria and the ones in the water column are really not much help. Keeping the ammonia and other nasty things in curing water at resonable levels does much to provide for faster later stages in the new tank. Change it ofter and large.

Tom---I think the discussion has gone askew--originally it was asked if water changes were necessary in a cycling tank-----
some how it has ended up in whether or not you should make changes to a separate curring tank.

What's you advise on the original question?

 

[Toddrtrex]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10834659#post10834659 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by capn_hylinur
..........also doing alot of water changes isn't cheap.

I am referring to all your posts, and you saw, I wasn't referring to you, I just type too slow.

And for me it isn't adding any cost. I have 3 running tanks right now. I do water changes on them once a week, so I use the water that I take out of them and use it to change the water in the curing bin. (( or what ever we want to call it. ))

Now, when I set up my 29 gal about 6 months ago I cured the rock in the tank itself, since there was nothing in there at the time. I did a 5 gallon water change each week. (( plus one more with the water from the other tank next to it ))

 

[bmcq]

OK, I'm getting ready to set up a 240 gallon system with a 90 gallon sump, and a 20 gallon refugium ..... if I put very porous base rock in the the main tank, with a 3- 4" aragonite sand bed, additional pourous base rock in the sump, a RDSB in the fuge .... nothing here has life ... but I have built a base for my tank to cycle .... where do I go from here? I have essentially put together eveything I need for a great filtration system. It will take time, but I think in the long run my tank will be more stable if I let it run it's course and slowly build the system.

 

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10834715#post10834715 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Toddrtrex
I am referring to all your posts, and you saw, I wasn't referring to you, I just type too slow.

And for me it isn't adding any cost. I have 3 running tanks right now. I do water changes on them once a week, so I use the water that I take out of them and use it to change the water in the curing bin. (( or what ever we want to call it. ))

Now, when I set up my 29 gal about 6 months ago I cured the rock in the tank itself, since there was nothing in there at the time. I did a 5 gallon water change each week. (( plus one more with the water from the other tank next to it ))

that's a great system :smokin: