Water Changes

[Kryptikhan]

so correct me if im wrong. base rock, live rock, no rock. i'm about to start my project within the next few weeks and this is of great concern.

after reading this post, i'd perform water changes to keep ammonia down. as far as cost.....who here is concerned about cost at this point, this hobby aint cheap....do it the right way imo. a few changes of salt is not going to break the bank...and if it does i'm not sure you are in the correct hobby. now, if you can perform the same cycle without water changes and all this controversy...heck...lets save some money for some cool coral or fish. it's confusing to me at this standpoint

 

[Randall_James]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10834682#post10834682 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by capn_hylinur
Tom---I think the discussion has gone askew--originally it was asked if water changes were necessary in a cycling tank-----
some how it has ended up in whether or not you should make changes to a separate curring tank.

What's you advise on the original question?

it did, but as I posted in the very first post, allowing the ammonia to climb to dangerous levels does absolutely no good for the tank. IT causes excessive die off and really narrows the diversity of life in the rock. This applies to the display tank, a curing tank for rock or any other tank with life of any kind. A tank for quarantine without any life at all does not matter. The ammonia can not kill anything.

besides my own experience on this, I have done a fair amount of research on this as well.

The reference later to the DSB is way off base as well. (They take a good 4-6 months before they even start to do any good and they are not meant to deal with ammonia issue directly, it is nitrate reduction)

I have no idea where the other poster came up with "no need to do water changes" or that using "uncured" rock was illogical..

Fact is that you do not want ammonia levels to exceed safe levels regardless of what is going on in the tank. In the initial days of a new tank, it could be no water change or as much as 100% changes over a 2 week period. Just depends on the source and care of the rock prior to your acquisition.

I do not think it is a "money grab" for anyone, good rock yields good tanks. Sure you can do this with base rock but you give up some things along the way.

If you can not afford to do the water changes, (15 to 35 cents a gallon) then you may be chasing a hobby that is out of your league. As most tanks should see at least 10% per week and more like 20%. This is part of the "pre build" you need to go through, if you can not afford 100G of salt water per month, then a 125G tank is probably too large for you.

 

[Randall_James]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10835129#post10835129 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kryptikhan
so correct me if im wrong. base rock, live rock, no rock. i'm about to start my project within the next few weeks and this is of great concern.

after reading this post, i'd perform water changes to keep ammonia down. as far as cost.....who here is concerned about cost at this point, this hobby aint cheap....do it the right way imo. a few changes of salt is not going to break the bank...and if it does i'm not sure you are in the correct hobby. now, if you can perform the same cycle without water changes and all this controversy...heck...lets save some money for some cool coral or fish. it's confusing to me at this standpoint

The best tanks I have seen start with good fresh liverock that is cured by the owner. This requires you keep the ammonia levels at safe levels throughout the process is all. If you use base rock, you sacrifice a lot of different types of animals and hitchhikers. BUT you save on bad hitchhikers as well. Base rock also takes much longer to stabilize (can take 6 to 8 weeks) where fresh rock is usually done at 4. If you buy "cured" rock from a LFS, you can have a tank that is ready for fish in under a week (although not a good idea, patience is a big big factor in this hobby)

I like fresh uncured rock myself..

 

[Kryptikhan]

i think the rock here is cured live. 4 bux a pound. he stated in my 75g 100 lb would be good. im assuming this live rock is cured. if i get my tank and all the set up by end of oct. im hoping to have it "cycle" by jan 1. I do not think that's bad goal...it might be ready before then, but just for the sake of waiting to add fish, i'll wait. i'm also adding two incehs of sand. this have any efect on rock at all?

 

[Randall_James]

2" of sand is going to be "cosmetic"

If the rock is fully cured (and many times it is) your tank may be capable of holding fish in a week or less (but do wait, stocking to soon or to heavy is going to result in algae issues later)

 

[WaterKeeper]

I hate it when things get askew.

My straight answer to curing LR is not to do it in the main tank. You have a brand new tank with brand new water. Why screw it up by fouling that water for step one?

I like shallow curing vats, you can pick them up for cheap at the dollar stores, to cure the rock. Being shallow provides good gas exchange and it also means you use less water to fill one. If possible, I use a series of three or four and do it assembly line fashion. Every day or two I just move the rock to a new vat. I dump the original vat and refill it placing it at the far end of the line. I do this till ammonia reaches zero and the water loses that "Newly Deceased" smell. Once that is done I then move it to the display.

The progressive vat system saves a lot of water as compared to using a large display tank for curing and it will greatly reduce the subsequent algae blooms, although there will be some mild bloom even using the vat method.

 

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10839681#post10839681 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by WaterKeeper
I hate it when things get askew.

My straight answer to curing LR is not to do it in the main tank. You have a brand new tank with brand new water. Why screw it up by fouling that water for step one?

I like shallow curing vats, you can pick them up for cheap at the dollar stores, to cure the rock. Being shallow provides good gas exchange and it also means you use less water to fill one. If possible, I use a series of three or four and do it assembly line fashion. Every day or two I just move the rock to a new vat. I dump the original vat and refill it placing it at the far end of the line. I do this till ammonia reaches zero and the water loses that "Newly Deceased" smell. Once that is done I then move it to the display.

The progressive vat system saves a lot of water as compared to using a large display tank for curing and it will greatly reduce the subsequent algae blooms, although there will be some mild bloom even using the vat method.

this is very informative----and I am not being a smart *ss here--but why are you going to all this trouble to do this in the first place when you can buy partially cured rock, place it in the tank and let the tank cycle in traditional ways.
Again, I just can't connect the dots here , but as always I have a very open mind to new techniques.

 

[Toddrtrex]

Sometimes it isn't an option to get partially cured rock. When I redid my 75 I was able to get all the rock from a respected LFS. The drive was only 30 minutes, so I was able to put it in my ( already running ) tank right away.

But with the re-do of my 58 that I am doing right now, I got uncured rock because I wanted to try it and I have the time to cure it. I have to do a lot of work on that tank before I could even put the rock in. (( Massive bubble algae issues, plus some "pests" -- GSP, and yellow polyps ))

 

[Randall_James]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10840122#post10840122 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by capn_hylinur
this is very informative----and I am not being a smart *ss here--but why are you going to all this trouble to do this in the first place when you can buy partially cured rock, place it in the tank and let the tank cycle in traditional ways.
Again, I just can't connect the dots here , but as always I have a very open mind to new techniques.

Many do not have the means to use multiple containers to cure rock separately nor do the even want too. (TBS tanks for instance, most rocks go from ocean to living room)

You can buy reef bones, or base rock for 1-4$ a pound and have no issues with curing. However, you are also not going to get any of the hitchhikers (good and bad) that come with real ocean rock.

IMO the real joy of this hobby is the diversity of life in a tank. I can go with a "Safe" cycle my tank and throw some dead reef bones in there and have a "Reef" tank after I buy some corals and fish.
BUT... what do I have when I am done? IMO a pretty organized, pretty boring tank.

I rather get ocean fresh rock, control its environment and see just how many different things are alive in the tank. How many hours did you sit staring at a tank looking at all the small life that came from your live rock?

I can appreciate the "keep my tank clean" approach of waterkeeper, but in the long run (a year or 2 down the line) it is not going to make a bit of difference in the tank how you cured the rock.

Garbage and detritus happens no matter what you do.

By controlling the toxins in the tank during the initial setup, I can be assured of a tank full of very diverse life forms and little critters that you can not possibly go buy and add to a tank.

This makes it more of a BIOTOPE in my opinion rather than a glorified fish bowl.

I still think the answer to the post is (enough water to keep the ammonia at safe levels)

 

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10840256#post10840256 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randall_James
Many do not have the means to use multiple containers to cure rock separately nor do the even want too. (TBS tanks for instance, most rocks go from ocean to living room)

You can buy reef bones, or base rock for 1-4$ a pound and have no issues with curing. However, you are also not going to get any of the hitchhikers (good and bad) that come with real ocean rock.

IMO the real joy of this hobby is the diversity of life in a tank. I can go with a "Safe" cycle my tank and throw some dead reef bones in there and have a "Reef" tank after I buy some corals and fish.
BUT... what do I have when I am done? IMO a pretty organized, pretty boring tank.

I rather get ocean fresh rock, control its environment and see just how many different things are alive in the tank. How many hours did you sit staring at a tank looking at all the small life that came from your live rock?

I can appreciate the "keep my tank clean" approach of waterkeeper, but in the long run (a year or 2 down the line) it is not going to make a bit of difference in the tank how you cured the rock.

Garbage and detritus happens no matter what you do.

By controlling the toxins in the tank during the initial setup, I can be assured of a tank full of very diverse life forms and little critters that you can not possibly go buy and add to a tank.

This makes it more of a BIOTOPE in my opinion rather than a glorified fish bowl.

I still think the answer to the post is (enough water to keep the ammonia at safe levels)

Randal, I agree with the boring part----but we have Reef Central----LOL:rollface:
Seriously, I am really on a great learning curve creating a refugium and a mud/mangrove sump for the purpose of introducing new and a variety of life into my tank.
How much life are you really missing out on by not using uncured rock?

 

[Randall_James]

I think that is the BIG it depends question...

IF the vendor took exceptional care of the uncured rock, maybe nothing at all...

If they threw it in a vat at the back of the store for a month and called it cured, who knows...

If this was a business, I would buy cured rock... as it is a hobby, I like having my tinkering involved in all I can (think that is what defines hobby... not worthwhile for profit? )

 

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10840816#post10840816 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randall_James
I think that is the BIG it depends question...

IF the vendor took exceptional care of the uncured rock, maybe nothing at all...

If they threw it in a vat at the back of the store for a month and called it cured, who knows...

If this was a business, I would buy cured rock... as it is a hobby, I like having my tinkering involved in all I can (think that is what defines hobby... not worthwhile for profit? )

that is the bottom line-----what defines the hobby to you---there are some many aspects to be involved in that you have to focus on the aspects that make it fun for you

thanks for all your patience and detailed answers---if I ever get into curing my own rock---I've got this thread printed off and tucked away.:smokin:

 

[WaterKeeper]

I think we are under the impression still that the water has much to do with the cycle. It really has little to no effect on tank operation and filtration. It is the LR and LS themselves that will provide our tank with the needed bacteria population and the bacteria in the water column are only along for a free ride. As the tank become stable the suspended bacteria population goes into serious decline. It doesn't entirely disappear but if we weighed the suspended bacteria and then the fixed film bacteria we would see that the suspended bacteria are only maybe a couple of thousandths of a percent of the total bacteria population.

I wasn't entirely sure about the comment about not being able to afford separate plastic curing vats. I picked up half a dozen, 15 gallon, shallow, plastic storage bins for under $40 at the dollar store. They have all sorts of other uses after you cure your rock so I can't see that that is too expensive.

Anyway, here is a second opinion, written some time ago by Darren Walker (Palmetto), who was in the LR business. The Beginners Guide to LR.

 

[Toddrtrex]

$40 at the dollar store?

But you are right, they are cheap, I just picked up two of the rubbermaid containers at Target, think they were $20 or so. And they hold about 15 gallons too. I use two of them because they tend to bow a little bit, feel better having them stacked.

 

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10846170#post10846170 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by WaterKeeper
I think we are under the impression still that the water has much to do with the cycle. It really has little to no effect on tank operation and filtration. It is the LR and LS themselves that will provide our tank with the needed bacteria population and the bacteria in the water column are only along for a free ride. As the tank become stable the suspended bacteria population goes into serious decline. It doesn't entirely disappear but if we weighed the suspended bacteria and then the fixed film bacteria we would see that the suspended bacteria are only maybe a couple of thousandths of a percent of the total bacteria population.

IMHO---I think the orginal discussion centred around whether or not you should do water changes during the cyling stage.
I understand that the bacteria is in the live rock and sand bed areas--and that bacteria increase in response to a bioload.
So IMO I would think that you do not want to remove the stimulus for the growth of bacteria by water changes at this point.

I can see it necessary --at the end point(4-6 weeks-- if your nitrate levels don't come down or simply replacing the water as in a normal water change.

Am I still misssing something here

 

[Toddrtrex]

You aren't missing something, it is just that there are two schools of thought for this. Some ( like myself ) feel that it helps to do a WC during the cycle, others feel that it isn't needed. All I can say is that I have always done it that way and it has worked for me. Granted I have never ran an experiment with this to see if it is better one way or the other.

 

[Randall_James]

Sorry Waterkeeper, it was not a finance thing on vats, it was a "room" for them issue.

I have a house and I do not have anyplace for 1 or more curing vats with power and room to spare. Seems with 1600sq you would have room for a few of these but I just dont (except the garage and that has climate control issues)

 

[Toddrtrex]

That is one advantage for me, my place is about the same size, but it is just me, so the second bedroom/bathroom handle my curing processes.

 

[WaterKeeper]

Well, fill up the bath tub Randy. You can get by for a couple of weeks by using Rite Guard.

Sorry Cap, but I really don't see any stimulus in providing a toxic environment in the tank when starting out. The median products of a cure are mainly toxic, and when you get by that, the end products are mainly nutrients that will fuel and algae outbreak.

I know that many, many reefkeepers cure the rock in the display, only to be haunted by a Mother of All Algae Blooms (MOALB). The remote curing system is just my own way to avoid the Algae Megaton Blast that follows such practice. A new reefer has a lot to worry about. Why make him/her cope with weeks of mat green algae?

 

[Randall_James]

Oh man, the bathtub... the only spare I have is full of gin....

The 2 tanks I setup using TBS did not have the post algae bloom. (I also removed some sponges that they missed, terrible sources of nutrient for algae)

I do think the quality of your rock (prep) is going to play a big role here.