Water Temps and Metabolism

[Purple Rocks]

Hello.

So i have some thoughts id like to share, also maybe someone can straighten me out.

Not sure how to go about this so bear with me if i seem to "jump" around with my post.

I have a background in horticulture for about 12 years now, i grow vegetables and herbs in hydroponics indoors and start seedlings and clones every spring for the garden. This is my main hobby, I only started with the saltwater aquarium less than 2 years ago, and both have tought much about biology and chemistry ever since.

So my idea relates to and is derived from growing plants.

Plants absorb water and nutrients through there roots and evaporate water through there leaves.
Plants also regulate there temperature via evaporation.
More a plant evaporates the more water/nutrients the plant is forced to take in.(some nutrients are mobile some r not)

Now if ALL growing requirements are met ie: temp, light,nutrients,humidity,CO2,O2 (both for the ambient air and reservoir)
You can increase plant growth, by raising ambient temperature and lowering humidity, while maintaining reservoir temp, thus forcing the plant to cool itself by the intake of water and increasing metabolism.
This may sound simple but it actually takes years of growing the exact same strain of plant and literally finding YOUR limit. A plant will grow as fast as its enviroment will allow it. However many problems can occur from doing this if nutrient levels become out of balance or ph spikes. (toxic buildup)

I assume that like soil borne bacteria, water born bacteria must mutiply quicker in warmer conditions.(warmer saltwater) So would that mean you could induce a bacterial or algal bloom with temp?

Now here is where im not sure any more.

Does photosythesis happen the same way in corals? Could i think of the outside "skin" to be the "leaf" and the "root" in one?
Obsorbing nutrients and temperature regulating?
Could temperature be used to increase growth the same as plants?

Another thought is on LPS there is water "inside" the polyp as well ( ex: the inside of a frogspawn i forget the name i know i have read over it at some point i believe they use the water to "puff" up.) is that water different to the sorrunding water? does it help facilatate in osmosis or temp regulation? ( by expanding or contracting its surface area/volume)

Im confused alittle, i know im trying to compare apples to orages but plants i understand corals i have lots to learn.

Anyway thanks for reading i hope someone understands me !
theres alot of questions any articles or good reading on the subject would be very welcome thank you.

 

[elegance coral]

I assume that like soil borne bacteria, water born bacteria must mutiply quicker in warmer conditions.(warmer saltwater) So would that mean you could induce a bacterial or algal bloom with temp?

The rate of growth/reproduction in bacteria and algae does typically increase with increasing temp. However, other factors typically become limiting, like available nutrients, and "blooms" don't occur.

Does photosythesis happen the same way in corals?

Yes.

Could i think of the outside "skin" to be the "leaf" and the "root" in one?

Not really, but kinda sorta:hmm5:. The coral doesn't perform photosynthesis. The zooxanthellae living inside the coral does. The cell walls of the zooxanthellae themselves would act similar to the leaves and roots, allowing water/nutrients in, and waste products out. The coral "skin" does the same thing for the coral though.

Obsorbing nutrients and temperature regulating?

I did read a study eons ago suggesting that the temp inside corals, that were exposed to direct sun light, had a slightly elevated temp in comparison to the surrounding water. However, heat dissipates through water much faster than it does through air, so this is a minuscule difference. Temperature regulation in these animals really isn't that big a deal. They're basically going to be the same temp as the surrounding water, and they don't have much control over this.

Could temperature be used to increase growth the same as plants?

Yes. However, it does get dangerous for the coral, just as it does for plants. With the price of corals today, most of us would prefer not to push these boundaries.

Another thought is on LPS there is water "inside" the polyp as well ( ex: the inside of a frogspawn i forget the name i know i have read over it at some point i believe they use the water to "puff" up.) is that water different to the sorrunding water? does it help facilatate in osmosis or temp regulation? ( by expanding or contracting its surface area/volume)

Not so much for temp regulation, but coral do take in water, along with the nutrients it contains, to inflates. Then they discharge water, along with waste, to deflate. Most corals have a 24 hour cycle of inflation and deflation.

Im confused alittle, i know im trying to compare apples to orages but plants i understand corals i have lots to learn.

Just think of the zooxanthellae as plants, (what they really are is arguable) and the coral itself as an animal, and you're half way there.

 

[Purple Rocks]

Took a while for me to get back on here, Thanx for the reply much appreciated.

Ok so we agree that higher temps would correlate to higher metabolism rate of bacteria and algae.
So in theory a warmer tank could assimilate/convert nutrients quicker due to higher metabolic rates, assuming all other requirements are met?

would make sense to me in a perfect world.

 

[Purple Rocks]

I can say this, if i were to move my thermo from 25C too 30C and kept humidity at 50-55% i would see a 3-4x increase in RO/DI top off consumption per day.

I know plants are different, but there is a huge change when this is done, nutrients are assimilated much faster, growing times are shortened, and water parameters can change rapidly withn 6hrs.

Look at compost and the abundance of microbes decomposing organics, next time stick your hand into the centre of a compost pile, it gets hot!

I just wonder what a difference this can have on any given setup or tank, could 4 degrees make such a difference on such a scale. There is alot of micro fauna to be affected throughout the food chain.

I wonder, a tank running at 25C should be able to convert/assimilate the same amount of nutrients as a tank running at 30C, but slower overall to some degree. Assuming everything is the same in both tanks except the temp.

Now could that change be seen in say a ATS with faster growth and pod rate, or perhaps chatoe? We know temp can cause clourapa to spawn or break into little pieces.

Could heating a DSB be beneficial, slightly warming the bottom layer, helping to facilatate water exchange and microbial growth?

some ideas obviously with there own pros and cons.

 

[jerpa]

Interesting theories. I know the growth rate of corals has been shown to increase with temperature. I've witnessed it myself. I pay little attention to temperature to a great extent. I am one who believes that corals can thrive despite rather large daily swings as long as they have been acclimated to this. My temperature through the summer runs between 83-87 generally with dips to 79-80 on occasion. During the winter the tank ranges from 75-78 with occasional dips to 74. I do notice a difference in growth. I can't quantify it. It's not enough that I'm willing to spend the extra $$$ to heat the tank to that degree during the winter. I would also assume most any increase in growth must correspond to an increased metabolic rate in the organism be it bacteria, algae, or coral.

 

[Purple Rocks]

could significantly increase growth in sea grass if planted in a DSB, Running a bio ball reactor near a heater or in a warm area.

I mean obviously we dont all have chillers and such to keep are water temp low and run our bio balls 10 degrees warmer, im just sayn.

I think running a warmer tank can lead to less reaction time to water changes and or better nutrient consumption/converstion and quicker growth of algae, assuming temp is the only limiting factor.

 

[swcc]

in the wild aren't increased temp causing bleaching events ?

 

[sirreal63]

in the wild aren't increased temp causing bleaching events ?

Sort of, it isn't the higher temps, but the duration of the higher temps, which has increased in some cases beyond what the corals are acclimated to.

 

[Purple Rocks]

I guess I'm talking more about warming a substrate, or reactor.

However some people run there tank in mid 70's while others in the 80's, not to mention seasonal changes, can cause a 5 degree difference.

Could a seasonal change in temp of 5 degrees cause some biodiversity to crash 6 weeks down the road? Leaving other/different type of bacteria to takes its place, due to the temp change, one could do better than the other. It could also speed growth so quick as to cause some unbalance.

Has anyone ever noticed a nutrient hike or downfall due to a heater/chiller malfunction?
Also heating the substrate instead of the water? in a dsb i have much more surface area to evenly to heat the water. Heat rises so this itself would circulate water too.

any thoughts welcome

 

[swcc]

I guess I'm talking more about warming a substrate, or reactor.

However some people run there tank in mid 70's while others in the 80's, not to mention seasonal changes, can cause a 5 degree difference.

Could a seasonal change in temp of 5 degrees cause some biodiversity to crash 6 weeks down the road? Leaving other/different type of bacteria to takes its place, due to the temp change, one could do better than the other. It could also speed growth so quick as to cause some unbalance.

Has anyone ever noticed a nutrient hike or downfall due to a heater/chiller malfunction?
Also heating the substrate instead of the water? in a dsb i have much more surface area to evenly to heat the water. Heat rises so this itself would circulate water too.

any thoughts welcome

I do have a thought. So, you increase temp and thus increase bacterial metabolism... now you have more activity, so, the nutrients in your system are consumed at a faster rate. With the good comes the bad... this may mean that your export and adsorption from other filtration lessens. The bacteria are now using up organics more(faster) with the higher temp., leaving less to be removed through skimming or carbon. ...so, from bacterial processes increasing we get higher nutrient levels left in the water from these processes and the algae goes up...just like more detritus means more bacteria, means more left over nutrients, and more algae.
The primary purpose of the non biological filtration you use(skimming and adsorption media) is to decrease bacterial activity. This in turn keep lower levels of nutrients in the water... How would increasing bacterial activity be a good thing? If you hold the higher temp...you end up with a higher level of biological filtration and less export/adsorption happening.

Now running a higher temp during cycling or when 'cooking/curing' rock is a smart move as the bacteria will work faster to consume nutrients and die off from the rocks thus cleaning that much more efficiently. Heck, you may be onto something as recommending keeping a tank at a higher temp during the cycle might be a good move. It is recommended to 'cook' rock in the mid 80's F.

 

[davilae1]

Hi there guys, Very interesting conversation. I wont increase my temp more than 85 on my 90 gal tank, I did remove chiller and notice a significant growth on my corals, always keep my eyes on temp. make sure doesn't raise higher than 85, with chiller use to run at 77, with out during night time runs 79-80 and during day time 82-83.