We have a Great White

[yarquint]

Oh, by the way wonrib- i don't mean to correct you in your own thread-because I think it is a good way to get some inside info on this animal and a thread that i'm impressed with that it exists.
but as far as the Cape Cod whitey goes, the range of Cape Cod, Long Island and Nantucket-even as far as Prince Edward Island Canada, are regular areas for whites.
the real 'Jaws" was half based off a NJ shark, but Benchley got the idea from a 6200lb white taken off Long Island in the early 70's, late 60's.
Whites are good in cooler ranges than most sharks- the waters off south africa and Australia are cooled by waters from the antarctic- (and whites have been seen/recorded in depths of over 1000 feet off Hawaii-)
btw my name is two words. "Yar Quint"

 

[boxer85]

yarquint~ so what do you eat?

i could make the argument that no matter what you are eating, it is killed before you eat it. even plants are living organisms....

and if you start looking at farming, then the pesticides they use pollute our drinking water..

saying something is detrimental to the environement is not in and of itself a convincing argument. purely by our existence we are detrimental to the environment.
electricity, gasoline, oil, are all created or mined from the earth. i am sure you utilize those things every day.

 

[Napoleon_K]

[violation]

 

[gatohoser]

nevermind

 

[Bamm Bamm]

Wonrib00-(starter of the thread)
I heard on the news this morning that you guys have been having issues with the Great White now getting a bit more aggressive towards the other fish and that it has actually eaten two smaller sharks I beleive they said.. I'm curious if you guys were thinking of somehow isolating the GW or if you guys were going to bascially just let nature take its course within the tank? I think this is amazing and I'm really excited about the Great White there it was sweet to see it a few months back when I was there..

on a side note
NKAMINER
SHOULD BE BANNED FOR THOSE COMMENTS ON THIS BOARD

 

[Meisen]

Dang why do good threads always head down this road? Can we keep it civil?

Yar Quint, you make some very fine points about conservation. I just dont happen to agree with some of them. The reality is that most conservationists I have met in AZA settings will admit the need to concede a bit to keep the lights on. Just how much do we concede is a good question. Ultimately, your arguement could be applied to a large percentage of animals kept in captivity. Just because white sharks are "special" to us that doesnt make them special to Mother Nature. Just another piece of the puzzle. If people's awareness is increased and they are made to care, they may ultimately make larger choices that benefit wildlife (ie voting for certain pro-environment candidates, donating money to nonprofits that support research and conservation, contributing to public opinion concerning wild spaces etc). If one or ten or a hundred sharks are captured towards that end (and the impact is believed to be minimal), I believe we have still made a worthy sacrifice in the name of a larger picture.

"Few perceive the difference between the well-being of a creature and the survival of a species" -Dr. William Conway

 

[yarquint]

boxer- I won't argue at all with that. The idea is that violence against animals is a worse thing than violence against plants. Now that's from teh Dalai Llama, which I don't expect everyone to accept, but it's explanation.
Of course, we all use those things everyday, i can't say i don't. But I look at the way i approach my uses of these things, and limit what i can. This is always going to be an issue- we all use natural resources to survive, and there will always be someone who uses less than i do. Really though- this isn't a worthwhile arguement to have- i'm not trying to spite you or anything- it's just this can be argued/discussed to death, and we'll probably just get bored and argue until we forget what we're talking about...
Plus, yes pesticides. I'm not saying I'm better than you cuz i don't eat pesticides- but my life is studying how and why our government makes decisions that allow these chemicals to be used and what they do about it-or not do about it. So I don't feel bad eating them (Esp. since some kind of cancer will eventually kill all of us realistically) since my daily work is work toward the end of their use..it's a matter of scale.
And, you're right, my saying they're bad for the earth isn't proof. But I take it you're intelligent and can make a connection that these things are bad for the earth. Or, you can start learning more about them yourself. I'm simply talking from 8 years of research experience. so...back to the shark.
i'm about to quit my current job, so i spent about a half hour just watching the tank cam, getting adrenalin rushes everytime she swam by. (And don't tell me "oh, now you're enjoying watching her"...i've already seen all her pics in the news- it's nothing new)
I'm really disappointed i didn't catch what that guy said- if something got edited, you know it's the most interesting thing out there....

 

[Napoleon_K]

It wasn't interesting, supposed to be sarcastic, but I agree it came across too rough

the gist of it was "if you don't have good opinions, keep them to yourself" (this line is to be read with sarcasm)

anyway........back to the GWS

 

[AJP]

Looks like the shark doesnt like the other tank mates.
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050310/ap_on_sc/captive_shark_1

 

[hogpark7430]

Yarquint

I would assume that you aren't much involved with the hobby that this forum represents other than an outlet for your opinions (which is fine).
I believe that the monetary and knowledge gains of having this animal on display far out weigh leaving it to die in the fish net it was caught in. If the Aquarium nets a little more from this it will help fund all there projects ,and when the animal outgrows the aquarium it is scheduled to be released. If letting the general public see, and learn about this animal in a setting other than a movie or shark week special offends you than I say your priorities are might be a little off (no offence intended).

 

[yarquint]

Actually, I've worked profesionally at public aquariums, have toured a number of professional facilities, I know one of the MAC professional advisors (had drinks with him on monday) and have talked at length with some of the pioneers in captive shark keeping. And I've run tanks from 12,000 gallons to 2 gallons- and got to play with a 250,000 tank for a bit...and keep my own 55-soon to be 75g. Just to explain a bit-which is fine...and according to our inside source the MBA's plan is as vague as "We're going to keep it as long as we can", which he and they have said repeatedly- not "once it hits size X, we;ll let it go"
and nkaminer- i'm still disappointed, i like to read evocative stuff. You're right, if you have no good opinions, don't say them. That seems to have worked very well in the accountability of our politicians..but that is not for this forum.
I love this hobby, i love the people in the hobby- but it's the love of vigilance, where I want to see the best interests of an animal, not the "whatever the forum says is the right thing". Organizations can make mistakes- i think this is one- and our good inside source has said all through the posts, they are looking for criticism. Not that they;ll say, oh, some people on reefcentral are upset, we'll let it go...but at least I'll take some of their time to give me their stock answer "Well, we think it's worth the risk to see...blah blah blah..."

 

[yarquint]

AJP- thanks for posting that. If anyone here said my big fish is killing all my smaller fish, everyoone would be jumping all over them. the start of this post was somehitng about a tnag police+shark police. That article sums up what i think...maybe i'll write a story about this...a 500million old predator that is unnaturally brought to live in an enclosed atmosphere where it reacts violently due to close corners....oh wait- has MBA locked up it's raptor paddock?

 

[gatohoser]

You really like movies dont you yarquint :lmao: I think you've watched too many though :hmm4:

There's a big difference between the tang police trying to keep tangs from being mistreated when we are talking about thousands compared to ONE shark in the WORLD being kept but you and me beat the horse dead behind the scenes...and then you scared me...hahaha

 

[maxxII]

YQ,
there is a slight difference between fiction novels and keeping a GWS in captivity.

You make some valid points but still manage to come off (in typed posts devoid of tone, inflection, and the ability to "hear" any additional communication) as being a bit pompous and egotistical. Telling someone "if you have no good opinions, don't say them" doesnt exactly endear you to others watching. What gives you the ability to determine whats "good"?

Your comments about how keeping this animal in captivity is unnatural and not a study per se, are factually correct. That this is cruel is debateable, and the movie quote is entertaining, but irrelevant.

How are scientist suposed to learn about these animals without studying them? Are they just to accept the fact that they exist and be done with it?

I respect your concern for the animal's well being, but its not like the MBA is treating it like a circus freak. If you have the connections you've mentioned here, (and I dont doubt you do) why not provide solutions to what you see as problems as opposed to finger pointing?

Nick

 

[gatohoser]

I don't disagree with you MaxII but in all fairness and to clear up a misunderstanding, the opinion comment was said by some1 else (now edited by mod) and he sent it right back to the guy.

But really Yar Quaint lets make a new thread if you really want to continue with this discussion. You can link to it if you're worried it wont get as many hits. And lets keep all comments regarding that discussion to ourselves until there is a new thread for it.

The spotlight is back on the shark and nathan's updates!

Nathan,
What is the news about the biting from the inside? At one point you said that the first attack was off video but in the news article the scientists sounded pretty secure about the reasons for the attack so im wondering if thats to calm the public or if there is a new development. I was just amazed that they would so quickly say that instead of the fact that it is getting bigger and possibly hungrier and is swimming with dinner.

And what do you think you guys would ditch first: the shark or the rest of the fish in the exhibit?

 

[maxxII]

GatoHoser,
I realize YQ wasnt the one who started it, I just found his posts inflammatory. I'm all for moving forward in the thread and just letting things go at this point so as not to detract from the thread further.

Nick

 

[yarquint]

life g-hoser said, i simply repeated something someone else wrote- (which started as sarcasm that we should voice our opinions when we disagree with someone...) and in most of my threads I say "now, back to the shark". To briefly explain- there's a lot of one-up-man-ship/arguing semantics here on these forums whenever there's a disagreement- I only listed my background and qualifications so that people can't say "Well, you're just saying that" or "You don't really know..." I do try to respect other's opinions, i really do- and i'm glad people were thoughtful-and engaged enough to read this thread, and to read all the way to page 12 when i first wrote in...and then to argue with me- I'm not that interested in starting a new thread on the whole "do we have a right to keep these things"
simply- most fishes I'm fine with people keeping, it's just a few of the larger species that I don't like to see behind glass. anyway, and now, "back to the shark"
I'd like to know what's going on in there too from our inside guy-

 

[wonrib00]

Wow, we have been busy. Lets see where to begin.
yarquint You say that you have done some studying on GWS, what kind? Any new source of info I can get would be great. I dont claim to know everything, infact a lot of what we (as a society) isnt really concrete about sharks. You are right about non-profits staying in business. MBA has over 400 paid employees, and another 1,100 voluntees. But you are mistaking in one area. The bookstore is not run by MBA. It is run by a company called SSA, which does a lot of bookstore type stuff with other aquariums and zoos. The information in the book is pretty much how we got the animal there. So what they charge for it is up to them.
How will this shark's hunting be impacted?
How will it's sense of range and territory be effected?
How will it's size be impacted?
We dont know for sure. The hunting part, obviously we know the answer to that one. Since of range, probibly minimal if at all. Animals go where the food is more abundant. Who teaches the GWS to eat, to switch to eating marin mammals? They dont have any parental care. How do they survive then? Natural instincts are very importnt to ALL non-domesticated animals.
Sixe impact, not sur there either. This is why we tag EVERYTHING that comes out of MBA. We want to know where it is going, what it is doing. Your right, it is not scintific. Could the behaviors displayed by this animal be just its personality? Maybe. All the steps we have taken could prove that it was acceptable for this paticular animal, and no other animals. Not once do you say that no sharks should be kept in captivity, so I am assuming that since you were only talking about GWS, that other sharks are ok to keep in captivity? Like I said in the begining, I am not trying to convince what we are doing is right, that is for the public to make up thier own minds about. We are just reporting what is happening and what we are learning.
Good to know about the GWS on the east coast. My wife's aunt lives in Cap Cod and works for WHOI. So the intrest of the GWS in the northeast are family wide. I acn t imagine what a 6200lb shark would look like. That is more then twice as much as the ones we typically see any more.

Bamm Bamm News folks are interesting indeed. We have had two incidents where the GWS has bitten two soupfin sharks in the exhibit. The first was about two weeks ago ro so, and the second one was this past Monday. Here is what happened in the first incident. Soupfin got too close and spooked the GWS, the GWS reacted like a dog would if it were spooked by something that can potentally do harm to it. Fight or flight instincts take over, and with the jaws and attitude that she has, she is a fighter. The first shark was about six feet long, and it ended up missing about two feet from the second dorsal fin back. The second "attack" (as most guests are seeing it, unfortunately) happened along the same lines. The thing to kep in mind is that the GWS is an agressive animal. ALL animals in the exhibit get out of her way (except for the turtle, I think they are too dumb to know what is going on). You can get the exact story from the .MBA website , jsut click on te part that says exhibit updates. On a personal note that has nothing to do with MBA, what do GWS eat out in the wild? Anything they want. Soupfin sharks are a meal to them in the wild. Those that didnt think this was going to happen, didnt thnk very far ahead, be it a soupfin or anything else in that exhibit

 

[yarquint]

you're correct- I think some sharks are much better suited to captivity than others. And I've seen-and experienced myself- the awe at seeing such a beautiful animal up close. it's great to watch children completely absorbed by sharks. As g-hoser told me, there's the potential of getting an incredible benefit out of this that no one had thought of. Maybe one of those kids that sees it will figure out a way to protect them in a way no one thought of before.
It's always strange when I've been at cape cod or even at my house in MA when there's been a gw sighting. it's almost like i can feel the prescence, like a mood is in the air. I know it's jsut my thinking that one of them is relatively near by-
there's some good little stories on the port reyes bird observatory website- that's the small research island in teh Farollones off CA that actually takes interns for shark research. i think it's just prob.org, but i could be wrong. As I think of other resources, I'll try to send them along- a lot of my reading was out of semi-obscure books in an australian university's library.
I used to work with one of Peter Gruber's students- he's based out of SC and a pioneer in shark intelligence- if you get the chance to check any of his stuff out. He found that lemon sharks can learn tasks 80 times faster than cats, and put them somewhere along the line of a dog's intelligence and possibly higher...

 

[wonrib00]

hogpark7430 The aquarium has seen an increase in attendance, but at the end of the year, we still have to show a $0 ballance. So that means that we can do all sorts of other research on jellies, other sharks, tuna, turtles, all kinds of stuff.

AJP You cn see a more informed update by going to the link that I posted my previous post.

yarquint I am not clocked in for this!! I think I shold talk to my supervisor blah bah blah. Seriously though, we dont have a time table because no one has ever had one this long before, so we dont know. She could be in there right now eating the walls and jumping out of the water and attacking humans that are talking around the top. We would release her the for sure if she did that. This is why we are still on a day to day basis. How long is too long, do you know? We dont. Personally, if she has incidents with anything else in there, they should start looking into releaseing her real quick. Like I said in the first post on this thread, 13 pages ago, I was not too keen on the idea myself as long as the animal was in good health and was acting normal. On the flip side, we can have an animal that is biting everything in the exhibit. We are a conservation facility and we try to inspire conservation of the worlds oceans, that is in our mission statement.

gatohoser We have actually seen her get spooked before. I personally have seena tuna come up from beneath her(in a nonagressive manner), and neither one saw the other. The tuna sped away adn the GWS went back the way it came, but she did do a qucik biting-at-action when she did. The aquarists have looked at that video a milion times since the first incidnet, and if they see something new or interpret certain actions, then who am I to say other wise. I have not seen the video, and more than likely will never see the video. They are the ones that have been watching over her for the last six months. They know her actions a lot better than anyone at MBA. In talking with the aquarists, they really havent said all that much, just the standard blah blah blah (we get it too). In talking with some of the other employees there, feeling are mixed. Some are excited that she is still displaying normal behaviors, others are sd that two animals have died. But I am going to let you in on a little secret. Predation happens in all aquariums. It is a way of life. If any aquarium tells you otherwise, dont believe them. This is not the only incident ever at MBA, just the only one that has made news, I wonder why that is...