What am I doing wrong? Need help or tips to succeed.

[Doubledown]

I am getting frustrated.

I started reefkeeping a little over 2 years ago. I had a nice mixed 180 until about 10 months ago when we moved. When we moved, I decided to split the mixture and do 1 tank SPS and one Softies/LPS.

Here's the SPS:
180 gallon
Dart for return split to 4 x 3/4" returns (2 static behind rock, 2 through SeaSwirls for randomness)
2x Tunze 6100s on Multicontroller
3 x 250 HQI (SLS Bluewave) (2 Phoenix 14k, 1 BLV 20k)
330 w VHO actinic
GEO 6x24 Calcium reactor
Geo Kalk reactor
ASM G5 skimmer (1 Sedra 9000 modded for recirc)
200# LR
Shallow sand bed
20 gallon refugium w/remote DSB (this is new - 3 weeks running)

I am running PhosBan and Carbon 24/7 in reactors.


My frustration is this:

I lost several larger SPS colonies in the move (unfortunate, but normal). More depressing is that I continue to lose new colonies/frags that I either aquire from the LFS or from fellow reefers. Even thriving colonies from other tanks don't seem to do well in my tank.

Water params are as follows:
Calc 410
Alk 9.7
Mg 1290

Nitrite undetectable
Nitrate undetectable
PO4 undetectable (but I know it is there because I have hair algae growing)


I see all these beautiful tanks on RC, all of them so full and healthy. Great colors, great growth and large colonies grown from frags and smaller colonies. It is disheartening to come home most days to see dead or dying corals - I pulled 2 frags and a small colony today (not to mention the HA).

Is this the learning process? Am I paying my dues?

What words of wisdom can you guys, the SPS gurus, pass on? Am I missing some key elements for growth and success?

Thanks all.
Chris

 

[coker98]

it could still be the bacteria and the equilibrium of the bacteria was disturbed and is still trying to adjust. just what i think but what do i know?

 

[DarkXerox]

What is your salinity at? Also do you use a refractometer or a hydrometer?

 

[MiddletonMark]

How long has the tank been running in this location?

New corals, old corals ... all of them?
Are all the corals doing poorly, or just some?

Hair Algae? Please fill in more what algae issues are going on.

 

[fishdoc11]

Did you move the sandbed?

Also if the corals you are adding are comming from systems not running phosphate remover the change could be resulting in their downfall IMO.

Chris

 

[Horace]

You running the carbon and phosban in reactors rings the alarm in my head. My guess is your running those things too agressively. Personally I would ditch BOTH of those for a while. Do some water changes with known good RO/DI water. If you insist on running carbon, do it passivly in a bag in a med/high flow area in your sump. When you run water actively through carbon, this VERY OFTEN causes RTN/STN. Phosphate remover is also a well known culprate in RTN/STN.

 

[beeker]

carbon is only a culprate when you introduce it too fast or forget to change it often enough and when you finally do it shocks everything causing it to RTN/STN. i don't use phosban so i can't really comment on it.

i have been running carbon on my 20gallon SPS tank since day one and haven't had any issues. I change the bag every 2-3 monthes just to make sure its always "fresh" and not turning into an issue though...

 

[Horace]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7550911#post7550911 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by beeker
carbon is only a culprate when you introduce it too fast or forget to change it often enough and when you finally do it shocks everything causing it to RTN/STN. i don't use phosban so i can't really comment on it.

If you have the flow too fast through carbon it WILL cause RTN/STN plain and simple. It will strip too much stuff to fast, as well as take out the trace elements you want to keep in there. Phosban and other phosphate removers also cause problems when run actively and too agressively.

Many Zeovit guys have caused this same issue in thier tanks when they run their zeo reactors too fast as well.

 

[SunnyX]

This hobby can be trying and frustrating at times, but with persistence and consistency you CAN and WILL succeed.

Are you using RO/Di water?

What is the Specific gravity and salinity?

What is the temperture?

How is your system topped off?

What is your water changing schedule?

How many fish?

How much and how often are you feeding?

What are you feeding?

How long does it take for the glass to become covered in light algae?

How often do you replace your carbon and Phosban?

What supplements beside Ca and Alk do you add to the tank?

 

[shelburn61]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7550934#post7550934 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Horace
If you have the flow too fast through carbon it WILL cause RTN/STN plain and simple. It will strip too much stuff to fast, as well as take out the trace elements you want to keep in there.

You can get RTN from changing anything too fast, but there are plenty of people running carbon in reactors with great success. What "trace elements" are you referring to?

 

[Doubledown]

Thanks all for the replies. Here's some more info (answers to some questions).

Salinity is run @ 1.024 and I use a refractometer for measurement.

This tank has been set up in its current location for 5 months. All LR and the shallow sandbed were transferred from the prior mixed reef (I added another 150#s to the softie tank when this was setup so I would keep the total poundage up). The calcium reactor was added at that time.

I lost most all of my old colonies in the move (very sad time for me and a lesson that I will not forget - next move I will sell off/give away the corals instead of taking a chance on moving them) and I have been replacing/adding new colonies and frags over the last 5 months. The longest surviving coral is a Montipora Cap that has actually grown into a 4" colony from 2 1" frags. Different corals look good for short periods of time and then deteriorate. Example; I bought a beautiful pink Millie colony (3") from a local reefer who was breaking down his tank. It had grown and flourished in his tank, in mine it looked ok for the first 2 weeks and then the PE went to almost none and the color started to brown out. 3 months in my tank and I had to remove the dead skelleton yesterday. Usually when a coral dies it is from the base up. I have seen this happen to many of the colonies. It starts as a small patch of receeding tissue and over the span of 3 weeks or so the entire coral dies off (I have tried to frag some of these to save bits of them).

The hair algae started about 3 months ago. I originally thought it was due to overfeeding of the tanks (I love my fiance, but she loves fat fish and we've had to put them on diets), but I also have found I had a bad RO membrane (I thought it was just a malfunctioning TDS meter, but after changing the meter out... more to come). That is wher the Phosban comes in. In the past 3 months I have added the Phosban reactor (started with a 50% dose for the first 2 weeks in an attempt to avoid the bleaching issues), added the refugium with DSB (used the "Agra-Alive" sand for this) and replaced all filters as well as the membrane on the RODI unit. I still have the HA issue, but now my TDS meter reads 0-2 out when it used to read 100+.

I used to run carbon only passively in the sump. I run this because the second tank contains 4 large leather corals (2 Sinulara and 2 Toadstool) and the 2 tanks share the sump and I am trying to reduce/remove any chemical warfare between the 2 tanks. I liked the phosban reactor so much that I thought the carbon would be more effective when run actively as opposed to passively (I only added the reactor last week though).

I have all the right tools and my husbandry is pretty good (I spend more time on the tank than with my fiance). I do bi-weekly water changes using ReefCrystals salt. As stated above the Ca, ALK and Mg levels are in line. The HA should be eliminated with the new RODI.

Am I being impatient? Could it have been too high of nutrients due to the faulty RODI (the system evaporates about 5 gallons per day and autoo replaces that from the RODI resevoir). It's just very frustrating most of the time.

Thanks again for your comments and suggestions.

 

[slojmn]

It sounds like you have thought through everything very thoroughly. Good job. Don't get overly frustrated to the point of quitting, god I hate to see that. You have a lot of things against you right now, the move was probably the initial stressor and then things can go downhill for a while once the ball is rolling, as you are experiancing. I agree with Horace, little alarms went off in my head regarding the phosban and carbon both pumping through the system actively. Something to think about for sure. I wouldn't add any new corals for now. I was also curious about the shared sump...could softy toxins be adding to the problem???? I would go to a weekly water change of 5-10% and really check the RO/DI unit. I run my RO/DI water through a homemade phosphate remover after it has gone through the RO/DI unit. The water is dripped into a big PVC pipe with phophate remover sitting in it, then it fills up and pours out of holes near the top into my holding container. i got the phosphates from .10 down to .06 (measured with a Hannah colormeter), even this is not enough for me. I am going to a new RO/DI unit from SPectraPure as soon as I get off my butt and order it. Also, just a thought, once stressed the SPS corals will really show STN signs from a swinging ALK level. I see more people say their alk is between 8-11, that is a huge swing...I think anything over .5 swing in a week can cause already stressed out sps to STN in no time. I would check your alk a few times per week for a month or so just to see if it is swinging any. Good luck and sstay the course, you sound like an awesome reefer who is thoughtful and dedicated. This to shall pass...

 

[Doubledown]

Sunny X - all good questions. Answers:

RODI - yes (all filters changed regularly - prefilter @ 4 weeks, Carbon @ 6 DI when color changes @ 10 weeks - just replaced membrane)

Salinity 1.024 (will bring this up to 1.025 with waterchanges)

Temp 79.8 - 81.2

Topoff is through Kalk reactor with RODI water from a resevoir

Waterchanges - 15% every 2 weeks (this has actually been changed recently to 10% every 5 days with the new RODI membrane and HA battle.

Fish - Lost most to a bacterial infection 4 months ago. Have replaced a few to fight the HA (I have a total of 5 tangs ((all under 3")), 2 Rabbitfish ((under 3")), 6 wrasses ((2 cleaner)), 1 small Flame Hawk, 2 Scooter Blennies and 1 Mandarin in a total system volume of 400 gallons). 4 of the tangs and the 2 rabbits have been added over the last 6 weeks (2 tangs last Friday) to try and battle the outbreak of HA.

I feed a blend of foods created by a LFS (has about 20 or so ingredients including cyclopese, oyster eggs, krill, spiralina algae, mysis) once per day. I have reduced the amount of these feedings as well over the past 5 months.

Glass never becomes fully covered in algaes, but it does start to accumulate every 3 days or so in small patches.

I have only recently added the Phosban and Carbon, I am on my second dose of Phosban after the initial 2 weeks (this has been in the reactor for 2 weeks now) and the carbon reactor was added last Thurday using fresh ESV carbon (the previous passive bags of carbon were being replaced every other month and have now been removed totally).

I do not add any suppliments to the tank. I only run the Ca reactor (with a 3:1 ratio of ARM and crushed Dolomite ((for MG)) in it) and the topoff Kalk reactor.


Hope this sheds some better light on things.

Thanks
Chris

 

[Doubledown]

slojmn - thanks for the encouragement. I am fearful that the softie toxins could be a contributing factor. I used to run one tank as a mixed reef with extra large leathers and 5 SPS colonies and did not experience a negative reaction. That is not to say that it does not happen, but I run the carbon for 2 reasons - the chemical warfare potential and the clearer water (I am hesitant to try ozone).

I do not want to and will not give up, but I do wish I could see some success.

 

[Sk8r]

Certainly sps and lps combine more amicably than lps do with softies. I'm particularly suspicious of the sinularia. I had one palythoa I thought I could get away with in my sps/lps reef, and it had to go: nothing was growing, and things in its vicinity weren't happy, nor was it. Mushrooms and xenia are my two remaining softies...well, unless you count gps. But nothing more aggressive.

As much as you have invested in this, it might be worthwhile to take your phosban reactor and carbon to the softie tank and your calcium to the lps/sps side and sever the connection between the two tanks. My prior tank was a lot leather and I never could grow stony...wouldn't even survive. Now I'm all stony with those few exceptions and doing better.

 

[cwegescheide]

FWIW I don't subscribe to the softie toxin thing. I've got several nice sized softies in my sps tank that been running for a year now and no problems attibuted to them. I have been running carbon and phosban changed every 3 weeks or so since day 1 RAN PASSIVELY.

In your case its very possible that the recent addition of the phosban and carbon ran actively in a reactor could have changed your water parameters too quickly. I'd back off the carbon and phosban atleast in the reactor for now and run passively in the sump at lower amounts and gradually bring it up.

I'd also verify that your refractometer is ACCURATE!!! My corals were not looking healthy for a while and on the verge of checking out and then on a hunch I used Randy's calibration fluid concoction and found out my refracto was actually 1.019 when I thought it was 1.026!!!!!!!!!! So there is the Florida Aquarium near where I live so I thought where else would be better to verify my salinity meter.. Went over there and SURE ENOUGH!! It was WAY OFF!

I'm not an expert by any stretch of the imagination but what I've mentioned are things that I've read time and time again.

 

[jmcmahon66]

I really feel for you as I had the same problem for years, and just overcame it to finally have a nice reef. I based my turnaround on several factors, some you are already doing. First- new RO/DI unit, second-rowaphos in a reactor, third-phosphate remover used on my Ca reactor effluent, fourth-large sea hare and mexican red hermits, and lastly a huge deltec skimmer. I upgraded from a G3 and have never looked back. The water was clearer the day after I got it. I am not a big backer of leather toxins accumulating in a tank. I have large leathers next to torts, and they are fine with passive carbon in the sump. Ozone might help, but probably is not the magic bullet to fix your problems. HTH I wish you luck. If you need any frags/small colonies to try out, let me know. I would be happy to donate some.
Regards,
Joe

 

[Doubledown]

Thanks all.

Where do I find the calibration fluid for a refractometer? Is this from an article by Randy or is it in the chemestry forum?

From all your responses, it seems I am doing most everything right. At issue is the shared sump (due to the leathers in the other tank) and the active use of phosban and carbon. I hadn't planned to split the two tanks just yet (would need to get another skimmer, sump and return pump). I could eliminate the active use of both the phosban and carbon and switch them to passive.

 

[cwegescheide]

Its one of Randy's articles. Basically you fill a 2 litre bottle with tap water and add a certain amount of table salt. Should read 1.026.

Obviously you need to pour out the contents of the totally filled 2 liter and then add the salt to exactly 2 liters of water. Also you can calibrate with fresh water to zero on your refracto but I like to do both to make sure its accurate.

Good luck to you,
Chris