What Exactly is Old Tank Syndrome ?
- Thread starter Reef Frog
- Start date
CStrickland
New member
Ok I'll be done.
I really was trying to understand where you were coming from at first. IDK if its a language thing or what but you could have explained your idea a lot more clearly. I still don't really understand what you think bioelectricity has to do with OTS, but I think if this was going to go anywhere good it would have done so by now.
IMO you would have served the forum better by citing sources or explaining your ideas rather than digging through my post history for ways to insult me. When I have a bunch of experience I hope I put it to better use than that.
Reef Frog
New member
It seems the explanations that pointed to simple entropy, mostly caused by husbandry practices that lead to the excessive collection and lack of export of organic substances & the biological processes they drive, were the most plausible.
And the neat thing about that is the hobbyist can take gradual remedial actions over the years to prevent OTS/LARS!
And the neat thing about that is the hobbyist can take gradual remedial actions over the years to prevent OTS/LARS!
outy
New member
Funny over 25 years it has been a slow evolution forward.
I'm just now doing things different that I should have been doing from the start.
for me large enough volume for mixing station, and a booster pump were huge increase.
I would say the DSB is a great buffer for a lazy man. There have been years life has taken priority over the aquarium as well as tough times for money that do make it nice.
For my next sump, I'm using a conical water storage container (or fermenter!) like this guy: http://www.plastic-mart.com/product/10066/arlington-infd15-19
Build a shelf to hold the skimmer and any other gadgets above the cone. Plumb the return slightly lower down (fewer bubbles). Detritus and sand will connect in the cone where they can be easily dumped. FWIW, my tank always always always looks better a few days after I take the ShopVac to the sump.
Build a shelf to hold the skimmer and any other gadgets above the cone. Plumb the return slightly lower down (fewer bubbles). Detritus and sand will connect in the cone where they can be easily dumped. FWIW, my tank always always always looks better a few days after I take the ShopVac to the sump.
Reef Frog
New member
A few weeks ago I did the major yearly maintenance on my 6 year old 65 gallon mixed reef. I did all the basics: siphoned up some detritus, blew off the rocks, cleaned the skimmer body & pumps etc.
But for some reason I decided to REALLY have at it with a hand held powerhead this time. I blew it behind my rock work and was ASTOUNDED at the storm of crud that went into the water column. This was not your standard dust storm with a turkey baster! Visibility was almost nil.
I siphoned what I could and captured a good portion with filters. I also removed some sand that has hardened into a sandstone like rock & replaced it with with new sand. I did lose a long time fish and my corals extended their stinging tentacles to an extent I had never seen before. It was obvious that the disturbance of so much organic matter was temporarily traumatizing to my tank and feel it offered me a window to see what OTS/LARS really could be in a few more years. In a way, it was a "wake up call".
I always believed I kept a rclean & presentable aquarium, and my maintenence proceedures were more than adequate. My corals grew well, had good coloration and fish & inverts were in good health. But I learned that, like a house, sometimes regular cleanings need to be supplemented with a deep cleaning from time to time.
I did a few more debris cleaning & water change sessions, fine tuned some flow patterns and installed a small powerhead behind the rock work that can be switched on when needed to suspend sediment for capture by mechanical filtration. I think the tank is much more robust now and with a more modest effort going forward, can stay that way. Hopefully with this approach I can dodge OTS with an anti-LARS approach!
But for some reason I decided to REALLY have at it with a hand held powerhead this time. I blew it behind my rock work and was ASTOUNDED at the storm of crud that went into the water column. This was not your standard dust storm with a turkey baster! Visibility was almost nil.
I siphoned what I could and captured a good portion with filters. I also removed some sand that has hardened into a sandstone like rock & replaced it with with new sand. I did lose a long time fish and my corals extended their stinging tentacles to an extent I had never seen before. It was obvious that the disturbance of so much organic matter was temporarily traumatizing to my tank and feel it offered me a window to see what OTS/LARS really could be in a few more years. In a way, it was a "wake up call".
I always believed I kept a rclean & presentable aquarium, and my maintenence proceedures were more than adequate. My corals grew well, had good coloration and fish & inverts were in good health. But I learned that, like a house, sometimes regular cleanings need to be supplemented with a deep cleaning from time to time.
I did a few more debris cleaning & water change sessions, fine tuned some flow patterns and installed a small powerhead behind the rock work that can be switched on when needed to suspend sediment for capture by mechanical filtration. I think the tank is much more robust now and with a more modest effort going forward, can stay that way. Hopefully with this approach I can dodge OTS with an anti-LARS approach!
CStrickland
New member
I believe it.
I had to catch a fish last week and there was a remarkable amount of dust between the larger rocks. The tank's only been up a year and I have a lot of flow and fairly minimal rock work, but it seems that stuff will find a home someplace. I haven't been able to provide caves for the fish to rest in without creating dead spots.
I have an upgrade in the works and I'm thinking about building in some kind of spring-cleaning maintenance schedule. IDK if it would involve scaping in a way that is easy to disassemble yearly, or a more mechanical approach like what PaulB does with his diatom filter hurricanes, or some other vaccine against OTS/LARS.
I had to catch a fish last week and there was a remarkable amount of dust between the larger rocks. The tank's only been up a year and I have a lot of flow and fairly minimal rock work, but it seems that stuff will find a home someplace. I haven't been able to provide caves for the fish to rest in without creating dead spots.
I have an upgrade in the works and I'm thinking about building in some kind of spring-cleaning maintenance schedule. IDK if it would involve scaping in a way that is easy to disassemble yearly, or a more mechanical approach like what PaulB does with his diatom filter hurricanes, or some other vaccine against OTS/LARS.
Nano sapiens
New member
I have a 7-1/2 year old nano (10g water volume) and the practice I use is to vacuum under each of the five base rocks ever few months on a rotational basis (it is truly amazing that so much crud can accululate via advective forces in a relatively short period of time). Along with weekly detritus removal from the rear chambers as well as weekly sand bed vacuuming, the tank still looks NTOTM fresh each week.
This would have been difficult in my previous 55g with full rock work, however, and I also used a powerhead on occasion to blast the muck out from underneath. This 55g went for 9-1/2 years before I downsized to my current 12g.
This would have been difficult in my previous 55g with full rock work, however, and I also used a powerhead on occasion to blast the muck out from underneath. This 55g went for 9-1/2 years before I downsized to my current 12g.
Reef Frog
New member
I do some modest target feeding with planktonic sized foods on occasion. At night I've held a flashlight to the glass, watching the particles swirl around. Many of them seem to "stick" to the rock surface & sand bed. I've read that van der Waals force, which is akin to static attraction, is at work here and attracts the food particles. I can see how in low flow areas, this material stays out and just builds up.
Of course the little brittle stars, worms and other life have a feast. But over time I'm sure it can build to undesirable levels in a closed system. Hence I believe that purposeful detritus control is important to long term tank health.
I've read about "mineralization" of detritus over long periods of time in aquariums if it is not removed. I really have no information on the process or what effects it has on an aquarium. Anyone know?
Of course the little brittle stars, worms and other life have a feast. But over time I'm sure it can build to undesirable levels in a closed system. Hence I believe that purposeful detritus control is important to long term tank health.
I've read about "mineralization" of detritus over long periods of time in aquariums if it is not removed. I really have no information on the process or what effects it has on an aquarium. Anyone know?
CStrickland
New member
If it does mineralize I think it takes longer than my tank was up cause my nitrates hit 40 the next day. I probs upset some low O2 bacteria with my redecorations, but not sure that would account for all of it. Never happened from just fluffing off the rocks with a powerhead or vigorously stirring my sand either.
Did you see an increase in nutrients in the water column from your "wake up call"?
Also, might search Randy Holmes Farley threads for that, he's mentioned having deep patches of settled detritus w/o ill effect.
Did you see an increase in nutrients in the water column from your "wake up call"?
Also, might search Randy Holmes Farley threads for that, he's mentioned having deep patches of settled detritus w/o ill effect.
Nano sapiens
New member
The surfaces of live rock, especially, become covered by Periphyton in a healthy reef sustem. They are very adept at capturing particles and is one of the reasons why a healthy reef tank is tyically clear.
I've noticed this process at work in my rear chambers where detrital material clumps together to form 'grains'. After a thorough rear chamber cleaning, it takes just a week or two before I see then form. These aren't your typical sand grains which are too heavy to make it up into the overflow and then into the chambers.
As well as excess organics, excessive detritus also impedes bacterial function by reducing flow/nutrients. This is often overlooked, but I believe it is the crucial component to the buildup of NO3 and PO4 in many reef aquariums.
Climax forest is Old Tank Syndrome
Climax forest is Old Tank Syndrome
Right on to the above post.
In my observation of the progression of woodlands in nature, I see a climax hardwood forest as a perfect example of "Old Tank Syndrome". Left to its own progression, a field of grasses and shrubs will become a towering hardwood forest utilizing all the sunlight preventing grasses and shrubs from growing below. These towering trees are the dominant species of a climax forest.
In our reef tanks, depending on how we manage our systems, the climax forest may be a hair algae tank.
Climax forest is Old Tank Syndrome
Right on to the above post.
In my observation of the progression of woodlands in nature, I see a climax hardwood forest as a perfect example of "Old Tank Syndrome". Left to its own progression, a field of grasses and shrubs will become a towering hardwood forest utilizing all the sunlight preventing grasses and shrubs from growing below. These towering trees are the dominant species of a climax forest.
In our reef tanks, depending on how we manage our systems, the climax forest may be a hair algae tank.
So old tank syndrome is an end stage of ecological succession and our tanks are at equilibrium when we want it the least regarding algae?
We need to hit the reset button (e.g., fragging, water changes, and hurricane-level cleaning events) to changet the scale of when.
I think many would think it crazy to intentionally disturb what is working for now but maybe one of the answers for long-term success however that is measured.
Unfortunately there are too few tanks over the age of 20 or 25 years of continuous running to see those practices at work.
We need to hit the reset button (e.g., fragging, water changes, and hurricane-level cleaning events) to changet the scale of when.
I think many would think it crazy to intentionally disturb what is working for now but maybe one of the answers for long-term success however that is measured.
Unfortunately there are too few tanks over the age of 20 or 25 years of continuous running to see those practices at work.
Yes to the reset button. It does not need to be a hurricane, but can be. With a 5" Jaubert Plenum, I stir up the sand bed surface every day. Sea Apples, LPS and softies all extend their polyps and actively feed. I don't syphon my sandbed unless a problem develops.
I have had tanks up set for 20 years before I moved to Austin, My good friend Timfish has numerous maintenance tanks over 20 years.
While difficult to quantify, many tank problems begin at the bacteria level. Developing husbandry techniques that promote biodiversity of bacteria is a major proactive tool: feed live food from the marine environment, exchange some live rock periodically (I like diver collected uncured aquacultured rock), do sand swaps from mature systems with reef keepers that you trust.
I have had tanks up set for 20 years before I moved to Austin, My good friend Timfish has numerous maintenance tanks over 20 years.
While difficult to quantify, many tank problems begin at the bacteria level. Developing husbandry techniques that promote biodiversity of bacteria is a major proactive tool: feed live food from the marine environment, exchange some live rock periodically (I like diver collected uncured aquacultured rock), do sand swaps from mature systems with reef keepers that you trust.
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A1t2o
New member
I always thought of Old Tank Syndrome as the itch to get a new tank because you were getting bored with your old one. Maybe there is something to do with older tanks crashing, but IMO that would be due to neglect and the fact that there is always a chance of something going wrong. If you give it enough time the "something wrong" will happen eventually.
For some, it may be an excuse to start over with a new tank rather than deal with a natural progression of events. As responsible reef keepers, we interrupt the natural progression of events and maintain our ecosystems to suit our tank theme interpretation.
outy
New member
Has more to do with DSB neglect, combined with LARS
I have some knowledge of oxidation (nitrification) and reducing (denitrification) bacteria and their chemistry. In addition to a Marine Engineering degree, I had the highest waste water certification offered. I am certified to stir S.H.I.T. but have since retired.
First, let us talk about facultative bacteria. They exist in low oxygen environments and are 100 times more efficient at reducing NO3 to N2 than anarobic bacteria. At this point, nitrogen is a free gas to be exported at the water air interface. Also, it is well documented that both anarobic and aerobic bacteria can exist in close proximacy of each other due to boundary layer oxygen gradients being abrupt.
I have operated DSB up to 12" and Jaubert Plenumns up to 6" with no sand bed vacuuming. Note: I have >40 years experience in this hobby and do not recommend this for the average hobbiest. With the right sand bed janitors and husbandry the sand bed could be left alone. I mentioned in an earlier post that I stir up the surface to create a detritus snow storm to feed corals and maintain sandbed.
