what happens if power outage.. sump ?

Jim_Leyland

In Memoriam
so i have a 30gal sump for my 75gal. tank.. say my power goes out and im not home.. i know i can drill a hole in the u tubes or something to stop the flow down to the sump but if i do that and im not home and the power comes back on and the pump starts up again ill have 30gallons in my living room.. is there away around this? i know that's alot of "what if's" but its better to be safe than sorry! since im pumpin 700gph it won't take very long to empty a 30 gallon tank lol.. if anyone has any ideas or suggestions on what i should do let me know please!! thanks .. also is there a way i can turn part of my sump into a refuge? its kinda sectioned off in 3 parts but water does flow to each b/c there is a little gap under each piece of plexieglass (sp).. thanks in advace guys!
 
Hi Jim,

Your system needs to be setup so that if the power fails your main tank will not drain enough water into your sump to overflow it. To do this drill a 1/8" to 1/4" hole in your sump return plumbing in your main tank just below the water line. When the power turns off your tank will start to drain into your sump, when it hits the 1/8' hole it will suck air and stop draining. I would use one of the partitions in your sump as a refugium with a small light over it.

Dave
 
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Dave - would it be possible for you to post a pic of where the hole is drilled in your setup? I think I get it, but a pic would confirm if I'm right. I am thinking of plumbing a sump/fuge and was wondering the same thing. I'm on a whole house generator, but still... Thanks.
 
Personally I don't trust holes. With my luck a snail would be covering it when the power went out. My return has locline that I position right at the water line. That breaks siphon with only a little drainage.
 
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Drill multiple holes all the way down the siphon tube. It only takes a small 1/16" hole to break the siphon. I have about 6 holes in each of my return lines (they go all the way to the bottom of the tank). One of those 12 holes will break the siphon.

As for restarting the siphon when the power comes back on...well, that is why people drill their tanks instead of using over the top overflows :) I think the CPR overflows will restart, but I don't know how reliable they are.
 
OK, this might be a dumb question, but with 12 holes you have a total of 3/4" of an inch of holes in your pipe. don't you lose flow?
 
I have a sticker on my sump that represents the highest water level allowed in case of power outage. I tested this by unplugging my pump and allowing the water to ciphon back into my sump. I added water and moved my sticker until I got it stuck to the absolute highest water level to allow for drainage from the main tank. Keep in mind, you need to have a check valve on your supply lines from your pump to the main tank. Otherwise, you will get a back ciphon there too. When my tank back flows into my sump the water stays in the u tube... thus when the power comes back on, the ciphon is still active and ready to flow back into my main tank.

Never spilled a drop.
 
One thing, no matter how many holes your drill, it is important to periodically examine them and clean them if necessary as algae can grow and gum them up. Also, I would drill at least two per return pipe as Murphy's Law will prevail. Ex: You'll have an outage and a snail will be parked right over the hole.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8319814#post8319814 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MJAnderson
OK, this might be a dumb question, but with 12 holes you have a total of 3/4" of an inch of holes in your pipe. don't you lose flow?

I'm sure I lose some, but my return is used primarily to keep detritus from settling on the bottom only (bare bottom setup). My closed loop provides all the flow for the tank.
 
question: I understand why folks drill holes in their utubes to break the ciphon. What I'm worried about is the pump turning back on and pushing all the water back into the main tank spilling all over the floor and burning up a nice pump or perhaps spilling saltwater onto power strips and causing all kinds of problems, fire etc.... Don't we want to maintain the ciphon in the eventuality the power comes back on? Curious...

I know the top-off pressure switches can be flipped upside down and "cut" power when/if the water level in the sump reaches a low point in the sump.

I'm thinking about doing the above in case my utube somehow breaks its siphon. There'll be no question it will with a bunch of holes drilled in it.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8319814#post8319814 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MJAnderson
OK, this might be a dumb question, but with 12 holes you have a total of 3/4" of an inch of holes in your pipe. don't you lose flow?

Where would you loose it to? Wouldn't it still go into the tank?:confused:
 
Well my return pipe is in my overflow (AGA tank). Maybe more flow in my overflow would keep some of the algae from growing there. =)
 
Hi All,

You don't drill the holes in the Utubes, you drill them in the return line in your main tank. The idea of having the return line at the waters surface is also a good idea. When the power turns back on the sump will refill the main tank and everything will be back to normal. If your Utube looses water(siphon) then your in deep trouble.

Dave
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8320766#post8320766 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by stevestank
Don't we want to maintain the ciphon in the eventuality the power comes back on? Curious...

Without holes, the siphon will be maintained until the water level drops below the u-tube and it breaks. The only way to maintain the siphon without draining the tank is if the water outside the tank is the same level inside the tank....ie, your house fills up to equalize the water levels. Since the sump is below the tank, the water will continue to flow down until air gets into the line (siphon break) to stop it. The problem you are describing is the exact reason people hate siphon overflows.
 
I think something is getting mixed up in the explanation here. The "U-tubes" you are talking about drilling are the ones for the RETURN from the sump over the back wall of the tank. They need to be drilled (or very close to the surface) to minimize the amount of backsiphon that occurs when the return pump goes off. The check valves will always fail eventually. Even if they are taken off and cleaned weekly there is still the chance that a tiny snail or starfish could be inside the valve as it tries to close and props it open just enough to drain the contents of the display onto the floor.

The U-tube that you are worried about restarting is for a device called a "DUAL overflow". The reason it is called a DUAL overflow (everyone just calls them overflow boxes) is because they flow over (through the U-tube) from the main tank to the outside box and then once the outside box fills enough, the water overflows down the standpipe into the sump.

The water level in the display tank will drop until it reaches the bottom of the slots in the INTERNAL overflow box then it cannot enter the overflow any longer. The water will remain in the U-tube and internal box even if there is no movement of water using the same principals as when you put a glass under water and then lift it out bottom first the water stays in the glass until you break the surface with the rim. Even if you drained the entire tank at this point the siphon is still there and there is water in both the internal and external boxes to keep the ends of the U-tube submerged.

When the standpipe breaks the surface of the water in the external box the water will stop flowing down to the sump.

Then when power is restored the water level in the display will rise until it flows over the rim of the overflow box and becomes higher than the water outside the tank in the back overflow box. Then, because of gravity, it will flow out to the back overflow box and fill it until the level reaches the top of the standpipe and begins to flow down to the sump again.

They are really safe and THOUSANDS of people have used overflow boxes for years without any problems. The problem is the if you somehow lose siphon in the U-tube then the water will NOT begin to flow over the back and the display will overflow. if you have bubbles flowing through the U-tube and they accumulate in the top of the tube over time they will form a large air pocket in the top and stop your siphon. This is why CPR uses the Aqualifter pump to constantly pull air out of their overflow tubes and prevent that problem.

When I used an overflow box I ran 2 totally seperate units so that if one completely failed the other could keep up until I found out and fixed the problem. Much the same way people use four 1.5" bulkheads when they could get all their flow through two. It is a question of "what are you willing to trust?"

I have no problem using a dual overflow but I prefer the cleaner design fewer chances for trouble gain by drilling the tank.

Here is a pic to help illustrate the DUAL overflow design.

dualoverflowwa7.jpg



Hope that helps,
-- Kevin
 
Hi All,

I hope this does not freak everyone out but if my Utube does loose it water(prime) I have a way to not overflow your main tank onto the floor. I put my return pump in a small open top container with the top of the container about an inch or two below my lowest sump level. This way if the Utube fails I won't put the entire contents of my sump into the main tank. It will only go to the level of the container. Of course my return pump will run dry, and maybe fail. But, that's a lot better than overflowing my tank and dumping saltwater into my family room. Hope this was not confusing to people. Maybe we should talk about these concepts at the Oct. meeting?

Dave
 
Dave,
If the pump is expendable then that is a good failsafe. I think it would be hard to discuss some of these concepts without the whiteboards. We are meeting in the aquatic/primate building not one of the education rooms so unless someone has a whiteboard with a marker they will bring it would be no clearer than trying to get your point across here :)

This is, of course, just my opinion.
 
I didn't do any of that, my idea is to have a large enough sump to contain all the water that will backflow when the pump shuts off. I have a max-full line on the sump (about half way up the sump), and when I top off I never fill past that line (similar to the sticker routine of steve). I have an internal overflow box (with a bursa stand pipe) in the tank (100 gal). I also have flexible return heads in the tank which I angle down enough so as to not allow water to flow back thru the returns (once the water level gets below the returns). When I turn off the pumps (lose power) the water in the tank goes down the overflow until the water is below the overflow, and then the remaining water in the return backflows into the sump until the water level in the tank falls below the down-angled flexible return heads (which are at about the same level in the tank as the top of the overflow). The simplest way to figure all of this out is to 1-make sure your return heads are at or near the same level as the top of your overflow box, and anlge them downward. 2-remove enough water from the system so that when the pump turns off it drains just enough for the sump to contain it, then mark that level and never top off past it. The only disadvantage of this is when the power returns sometimes it can take a while for the pump to get a good solid flow again, but after a while mine always does. A good way to combat this is to make sure the line running to the sump from the tank is level (or angled downward the whole way) all the way from the outlet in the tank to the point it hits the sump (you don't want the water to have to flow up hill). IN other words no hanging/sagging hoses that the water will have to flow uphill against.
 
Bye the way I just realized that your set-up may have an external return, mine tank is drilled with the overflow box in the tank and the drains going to the sump are also with in the tank at the bottom. Hope this helps.
BB
 
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