What is it with this hobby... and people being cheap?

[ninjamini]

So here is the reason the LFS is so expensive:


I work for a manufacturer. There are two types of dealers (well there are really more than two but just to keep it simple) BIG ONES and small ones.

The BIG ONES buy in bulk. They have a sales person from the manufacturer come and push product. They buy it. They get deals on products, they get financial terms and flooring, advertising dollars, display dollars and volume discounts. They dont ask you to take it back if they cant sell it. They sell it at a loss and move on. Because of this they get the best pricing. Yes there is always 2 or 3 price sheets.

The small ones order 1 to 3 pieces. They dont have the money to buy in bulk, they dont advertise, they have tight or no credit and do not get terms or flooring. If they cant sell it they want to send it back. A manufacturer never wants it back. They think small and they are small. They probably always will be. They get the worse pricing. OR they buy from a distributor.

Manufacturers often use a distributor. The distributor orders in bulk and marks it up. They distribute a lot of different products so the order is not 2 or 3 pieces. This is the middleman. He makes more money.

Some times the distributor sells it to a retailer for more than the BIG ones can retail it for.

So here is my example. I went to buy a new PH. from a local shop. Which incidentally also has an online business and a few locations. They are not really small. They wanted $70 for the PH. I went on my iphone and looked it up at a online web site. $40. I had planned to pay more but that was ridiculous.




The thing to remember:


is that we, the people who come here and read, are not the normal customer. Most of the LFS customers are dumb. They do what the kid at the lfs says and buy what he recommends. The LFS is so hungry for a profit that they will sell anything to make a buck. They know that that they will churn customers. But they are shortsighted, which is why they are small, and they will do so.

Hey my LFS told me to put that anonomee in the eclipse 5 with the 6 watt light and two clowns. It will do fine....right.

 

[redfishsc]

The question I have here is, why are we talking about LFS as if all LFS's can be caricaturized into one big evil stupid idiot pet shop that sells betta bowls and is trying to rip everyone off?

Within 30 minutes of my house I have LFS's that hit every possible spectrum, --- the good, bad, and ugly.

I visit the good ones regularly and tend to make good friends with them.


The pathetic ones I visit once in a while to remind me of just how successful I am in reefing..... compared to these jokers with the cyano-toilets they call a "reef".

 

[Playa-1]

Within 30 minutes of my house I have LFS's that hit every possible spectrum, --- the good, bad, and ugly.

Some of us only have the bad and the ugly ones around us. So you will have to excuse us for ripping all of them. I guess I could travel across the country to find a descent LFS. But then it wouldn't be a LFS.

 

[Abraxos]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13861191#post13861191 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chrissreef
Thanks for the replies. I totally understand people trying to save $...

my "rant" is that people complain that LFS's are "ripping them off" but then they go out and spend $40 on a meal for two, $9 to watch a movie or $75 football tickets all with equal or higher markup and don't complain.

That's what I don't get. Why are people so against small businesses trying to break even but don't say a word about their other purchases?

I would imagine people complain about all of it but in different spots. If I want to complain about how pricey corals are I will probably do so on this site but if I want to complain why I overpaid for football tickets it will probably be in an email to my buddies, and if I want to complain about movie costs it will probably be to my wife. Not as many people will hear those other complaints.
For the record, I am buying a coral a month due to costs which is making me impatient but I also missed all of Bama's games this year and skipped several movies due to high costs.
Lastly, sometimes a wife is standing over you with a baseball bat saying "This hobby is too expensive! Stop!" That doesn't help.

 

[Vincerama2]

In this economy...support yourself and your family BEFORE you support your local LFS.

I bought some Aiptasia-X for $15 instead of online for $10. Why? Well, with shipping, the $10 bottle would have been $15 anyway, but the LFS that I go to has gorgeous displays and an extra buck or two for me is worth the admission!

However, they also sell pumps there that are $10 more than online. Sorry but I'll buy the cheaper one.

For a buck or two difference, I'll shop at the LFS. For livestock, I'll shop at the LFS because shipping for livestock tends to be high if you want it to actually be ALIVE when it arrives! Also, it's nice to see what you are buying. Plus you know the LFS has to pay for feeding and displaying the fish so it's not unfair.

Marked up drygoods? Well for salt, saving on shipping a 50 lb bucket is worth it to get at an LFS generally. But pumps, skimmer, etc? I'll comparison shop online before...then I'll consider if I can make a DIY version for cheaper. Seriously, if you buy a $400 CA reactor then look at it, you'll feel ripped off....It's a tube with some PVC and a pump...

But....we'll buy what we buy and everyone can make their own decisions about what to spend money on. I don't care if people on the internet call me cheap or lame (Oh no! Someone I'll never meet in real life called me cheap! *sob!*)

V

 

[Ronny#66]

Just found this thread . I think this hobby is expansive and what one is not these days. I just bought a skimmer on line . Local shop didn't have one that suited my budget that would hang on back of tank. I was talking to the local owner and he said he pays himself $7000.00 a month rent he owns the bld . You got to sell a lot of fish and related equipment to pay that kind of rent + make a profit pay all the employees at least 10 . Has to be one heck of a mark up in this hobby. there has to be !! By the way skimmer was shipped free local store would not ship it free anywhere and I saved paying sales tax and shipping and handling we'll say at least ten bucks.

Ronny

Ronny

 

[ZOKU]

I guess you don't see people complaining about expensive Nikes and $9 movie tickets because... well... this is a reef forum. I'm sure if you did a search online, you'll find plenty of people more than willing to complain about those items.

But I agree with most... if me trying to save some cash in this already crappy economy because my LFS wants to charge * several * dollars more for an item like a pump, powerhead or bottle of Selcon... then, I'm going to buy elsewhere.

I don't think that makes me "cheap". You wanna pay a premium at your LFS for something you can willingly purchase for a lesser cost elsewhere (online)? ...knock yourself out, Thurston Howell III.

 

[gmate]

Three words for you....and they begin with

D I Y

Keeps costs down, makes you more satisfied when things work out great, and puts personal emphasis on your tank. Oh, did I mention it keeps costs down? If you aren't capable of building a mesh top to your tank or nailing some 2x4's together, I'd be surprised if you could get the logistics of a controller unit down to a tee. They're similar skills, when you boil it down.

 

[danderso]

LOL! These kind of threads can go on forever! I buy a lot from my LFS, but I have a really good one. I also buy online whenever I feel like it. I don't mind paying a little more (sometimes a lot more) for fish and corals I can see and I don't mind the guy making a profit on me because he has helped me with planning and learning this hobby. My tank isn't ready for sps yet but when it is I may place an online order. Clams too. Chrisreef obviously spent a many hours listening to the owner of the LFS where he was working cry about all this. I wonder if his opinion has changed in the last 3 years.

 

[Psirex]

I have never seen common frags priced at $75 and trust me I have been doing a lot searching for frags....

 

[Megatrev62]

I need more money!!!

 

[Reverend Reefer]

adapt or die! that's life.

you can't really follow a bunch of rich hippies saying support local if its gunna cost 5x the price with bad customer service to boot. times are tuff. the market's changed, people's confidence with internet purchases have changed, everything changes. you gotta adapt. you gotta give someone a reason to come back to a brick and mortar mom and pop shop. you're not gonna get anywhere complaining to your customers about the high price of rent and the high cost of the wholesale market. we don't care.

if we're gunna pay more, there's gotta be a reason: better in person customer service, friendly knowledgeable staff, wider selection of healthy livestock, whatever it may be.

that being said, i have noticed a small trend change in LFS business strategy, at least in some shops. personally, i go to LFS to buy livestock. i generally won't buy dry goods/equipment because its cheaper online. i do however, want to inspect my fish and corals, get a good idea of their size, coloration, health, etc.. and sometimes even to just browse. i think a couple LFS in my area have generally realized this behavior in many of their customers who are a lot like myself. so what do they do to adapt and account for the decrease in purchases of high end reefing equipment??? they don't bother stocking it!

the ones that don't do this, end up sitting on this expensive equipment that doesn't sell, end up having to store it for a year, just to find out its gone out of style a year later - resulting in them having to eat that cost and put it on sale for less than what they paid for it.

clearly the smarter LFS stock less and less dry goods except for a couple pumps and little things here and there, mainly for people having emergencies where they need X now. other LFS in my area have adopted a dual market model, where they put most of their dry goods in a warehouse and opened up an online counterpart to their store. the brick and mortar shop is mainly for livestock purchases and a couple little things like what i said while the warehouse is run somewhat separately as an online store.

anyways, like i said, adapt or die. that's life.

 

[James77]

Wow what another dumb thread from years ago. But he topic seems to have become even more prevalent on this board. I will never understand why others truly seem to care what other hobbyists spend or don't spend on equipment or livestock. There is no minimum amount to spend to be successful if have fun, yet I see the same set of posters attacking people.

Spend what you can afford while being responsible enough to know what livestock limitations your cash places on you. Don't like someone not spending umpteen thousands of dollars? Mind your business and live your life.

 

[tebstan]

Sometimes a really old thread can put things in perspective. It started as a rant from a LFS employee, but it brought up some important issues.

The real problem isn't the customer being cheap, it's the customer needing a positive relationship and a fair deal - not either/or. Business owner's desperate struggle in a tough economy forces them to cut quality for the sake of quantity.

If they can't afford to keep top notch equipment, the big spenders won't come to shop. If they don't pay qualified staff a decent wage, they'll lose their good people and their reputation will suffer. Brick and mortar stores used to the be the foundation of this hobby, but many are shooting themselves in the foot and can't seem to stop the downward cycle.

A quote from THREE YEARS ago:

12/03/2008, 06:12 AM

Well times are changing. Kodak used to be the cornerstone of the photography industry and they had no vision for the future and got ran over by the competition. The survivors will be the ones that adapt to change.

From 3 DAYS ago:
Kodak files Chapter 11 bankruptcy


Even three years ago, it was obvious that Kodak was falling behind the times. They knew this, but couldn't quite stop the end result. That's what a lot of LFS are doing - treading water, hoping the economy will improve and save them. The economy may have been a catalyst, but can't be blamed for their lack of innovation in their field.

 

[Dholmblad]

I think that people overvalue their used reef equipment way too much. Use electronics that is around saltwater should drop 40% of value if used.

 

[GPB]

If you have a good LFS and you don't shop there because it is a little more expensive , then don't scratch your head wondering why they went out of business.

Online sources have one big thing a LFS store can't match. That is a big customer base. Online dealers can reach millions of customers all over the country. They can build volume and get substantial manufacturer discounts. How many hardcore money spending reefers do you think live in any one community?

If you don't buy stuff from them but like using them for quality advice, testing samples , getting ideas etc, than you are just stealing. If they are a crappy store, than I would not waste my time there.

Reefing is an Expensive hobby. Most of us have investments in the thousands of dollars in our tanks. I don't think I can accept that reefers are cheap. Many of us spend all of our limited disposable income on our tanks.

 

[tebstan]

If you don't buy stuff from them but like using them for quality advice, testing samples , getting ideas etc, than you are just stealing.

True! However, if that's all they have to offer, then that is the store owner's fault.

If every week the new shipment includes the same variety of fish, the only skimmers they carry are coral life, they don't stock sumps or drilled tanks, and the staff is minimum wage teenagers that don't know about reefing...

They cater to new hobbyists, who quickly outgrow them and start to go online, or get out of the hobby, or flounder with a mediocre tank. Which leads to this statement, which I also agree with:

If they are a crappy store, than I would not waste my time there.

My area has a good number of stores, IMO. It's a large metro area, and we have 7 or 8 stores that carry saltwater. In the last few years, we've had two stores close down. (I'm not counting the dozens of PetSmarts and PetCos all over town.)

Of all those stores, there is only one I consider to be quality on ALL counts. Some have good prices, but poorly maintained tanks. Some have friendly staff, but little selection. The usual death traps for a small retail store.

The two that closed down? They were my favorites, and I ordered from them even if it meant waiting longer or paying more than getting it online. I'm just one person, so I couldn't keep their doors open. I won't show the same loyalty to a store that I think is dirty, unethical, or incompetent.

 

[1DeR9_3Hy]

Another thing people forget is the squeaky wheel gets noticed. I know a lot of people in this hobby that are not on the forums, and they spend a TON of money in this hobby.

I think this hobby (like any hobby) has there hardcore sects, and those are the people who will join a forum and try to do as much as possible with as little as possible.

 

[1DeR9_3Hy]

This is the middleman. He makes more money.

All spot on except for this part. Distributors may do more volume or net sales, but they operate on or near 20-40% mark up.

Stores operate on 75-200% on most items unless they are getting beat up by e-retailers in which case they either try to get close to the price if someone haggles or they simply dont carry that item.