What is the diff btw using Red Sea ABC+ w/ RO or using TLF C- Balance?

greeneyesmiami

New member
Hello Guys,

Looking at a couple products and wondering what the diff is btw using Red Sea ABC+ w/ RO or using TLF C- Balance A B ?

They both seem to have a lot of the same ingred. and RS is an All-in-One product.

Anyone have comments? Randy? Bertoni?

Thanks
 
In a sense, these two products are intended to accomplish the same thing (supplementing alkalinity, calcium and some trace elements), just in different forumlations. Two Little Fishies' "C-Balance" is a two-part calcium and alkalinity supplement with some added strontium and magnesium. One liquid contains sodium carbonate/bicarbonate, and the other contains calcium chloride, strontium (probably chloride) and magnesium chloride and magnesium sulfate.

The Red Sea product is an all-in-one powdered combination of the above. One reason it's a powder is that it's impossible to supply a single liquid with both calcium and alkalinity without a tremendous amount of chelating agents or in an extremely acidic solution, because the calcium and alkalinity would immediately precipitate as insoluble calcium carbonate. Lots of chelating agents or extreme acidity would both be undesirable for a reef tank.

I've never taken a poll, but I suspect the vast majority of us on the chemistry section of Reef Central don't bother with pre-formulated calcium and alkalinity supplements. They tend to be a great deal more expensive than just buying bulk calcium chloride, sodium carbonate/bicarbonate, magnesium chloride and magnesium carbonate and making one's own liquid supplements, and the addition of strontium and other trace elements that have been pre-formulated into a calcium and alkalinity supplement can lead to undesirable accumulations in tank water.

If you'd like to "roll your own", Randy's written several excellent articles on the subject (one of which is here), and you can conveniently buy the chemicals from Bulk Reef Supply and other sources.
 
I agree. The practical differences would be cost and convenience. The solid supplement might be somewhat more likely to irritate animals if some particles don't dissolve, but in practice, people seem to get both to work well.
 
Thanks guys. I understand the ALK, CALK, Mg dosing concept and mix my own. but It's really hard to find Calcium Chloride powder in Asia. C-Balance is available, but costly because of all the water being shipped. Also understand that ALK and CA need to be dosed separately.

Trying to figure out a more economical way to dose in Asia, so was thinking about buying the RS ABC+, but not familiar with it. Wondering how RS dealt with the creation of a tremendous amount of chelating agents or dosing in an extremely acidic solution? AND, does the CA and ALK immediately dissipate when dosing this RS ABC+ mixed concentrate? Does additional CA and ALK need to be dosed if using the RS ABC+ mixed solution?

Anyone have any experience using RS ABC+ and mixing/dosing? Really want to understand why RS would produce this product if these issues exist OR did they fix in some way.

Thanks guys for any help possible.
 
The ABC+ probably is a fine product and will work well enough for you. Because it is a dry product, it does not require chelating agents or acid, but adding a lot of it to a small volume of water might cause a lot of precipitation. In your situation, it might be the most economical way to go. Other people have gotten good results with BioCalcium, which is basically the same product. I haven't seen any reviews of the ABC+ dry product. Actually, I didn't know that it existed.
 
Thanks Jonathan. Really appreciate it.

Went to the Tropic Marin website to read about BioCalcium. Looks like there is no Mg included in the mix. If I want to make an all-in-one concentrate, could I mix in Mg Chloride & Mg Sulfate to the BioCalcium and then combine with RO water? Or add the Mg's after making the BioCalcium mix?

BioCalcium directions say to "Sprinkle Tropic Marin® BIO-CALCIUM ACTIF onto the surface of the water in a place with a strong current, preferably in the filter sump, making sure that no undissolved crystals come into contact with the creatures. If this is not possible, we recommend the use of BIO-CALCIUM ACTIF Liquid Set."

http://www.tropic-marin.com/bioactifsystem/bio-calcium-actif/?lang=en

The BIO-CALCIUM ACTIF Liquid Set comes in 3 separate bottles though, so that's back to square one.

I'm wondering if the BIO-CALCIUM ACTIF dry product can be mixed up in 1/2 gal. jugs and stored for several months like I do with Mg, CA and ALK mixed with RO water (in 3 separate jugs) and set aside in jugs for several months?

OR, am I just better off using the RS ABC+ and mix it up with RO water and store in a 1/2 gal. jug, then dose as needed?

Thanks for your help.
 
While I certainly don't know the local situation in Kuala Lampur, I'm thinking you should be able to source calcium chloride fairly easily as a food additive. It's pretty commonly used in many food processes, and you should be able to source it from a commercial food supplier. It'll be more expensive than driveway de-icer, but still far, far cheaper than buying aquarium supplements.

Potentially, you could also make calcium chloride by adding HCl to lime. It's the hard way to do it, but it works.
 
As has been stated, the dry supplement products like ABC+ cannot be mixed with RO/DI at all, or even in a concentrated saltwater solution. They need to be added to the system in the dry state, in practical terms.
 
dkeller: Thanks. Have done the research and can't find locally. BUT, all hope is not lost. Looks like Calcium Chloride (in Wiki) is used in firming soybean curds into tofu. So.......maybe I can find it from a Tofu company in a nearby Country. Lots of Tofu companies in Asia.

dartier, Thank you very much for researching. ABC+ can Not be pre-mixed with RODI and stored for dosing as you showed me in the RS FAQ Section.

Bertoni: Thanks as well. 6:30 am on Mon. here in SE Asia, so just saw your reply after I posted this one.

So, I guess we're back to an A Solution and a B Solution if I want a pre-mixed stock concentrate for dosing that I can keep for a couple of months. But I think I can add Mg Chloride into the A Solution as long as the Mg Chloride powder matches the same amount of gallons dosed as the Calcium Chloride powder used in the A solution. Seems TLF C-Balance has added Mg Chloride into their A solution. No Mg Sulfate though in either A or B solutions though. Wonder why?

Anyone have any idea why there is no Mg Sulfate in either solution if "I guess", the idea is to include Mg into one of the 2 solutions?

Any help would be great. Thanks.
 
Sulfate will combine with calcium to form insoluble calcium sulfate, at least at some concentration, so using magnesium chloride likely is safer if you want some magnesium in your two-part. My tanks never needed magnesium supplementation, other than when I forgot to dose up my Instant Ocean, FWIW.
 
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