what is this small white flat worm like thing?
- Thread starter Reef Bass
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kokaneejr
New member
I think it is a planeria. I tried to google some info but the best I could come up with was if you only have a few don't worry but if you have a lot it's a different story.
Check it out and let me know if I am right. One of the club experts wil certainly know. Craig
p.s. I think it is a pretty good photo considering how small it is. I tried to take one of a copepod and it was almost impossible.
Check it out and let me know if I am right. One of the club experts wil certainly know. Craig
p.s. I think it is a pretty good photo considering how small it is. I tried to take one of a copepod and it was almost impossible.
Reef Bass
colors and textures
:eek2:
Jeff, you have lots more experience and wisdom than I do in the reef arena and if you say it's an aefw, then that is certainly my leading theory.
I agree it looks like a flatworm. There are many kinds of flatworms, and I'm hoping that it's not an aefw. The reasons I am not entirely convinced is from the research I've done, aefw's are a translucent brown, not white, and I haven't seen any bite marks on my acros.
Here are a couple images I lifted from MelevsReef.com. The first is an AEFW. Notice how it's clear and brown. My critter was opaque and white. I say was cuz I siphoned it out of the tank after taking the picture, though if it was an aefw there are likely many more.
This is an image of AEFW bite marks from MelevsReef.com.
I have not seen this on my corals and I look for it, as do my kids whom I've trained to look for this type of injury / damage to coral. I'm not saying it couldn't be happening, just that neither myself nor my kids have noticed it. I will get out my camera and do a macro inspection of my acros this evening to double check.
I appreciate your input, even if it is scary!
Jeff, you have lots more experience and wisdom than I do in the reef arena and if you say it's an aefw, then that is certainly my leading theory.
I agree it looks like a flatworm. There are many kinds of flatworms, and I'm hoping that it's not an aefw. The reasons I am not entirely convinced is from the research I've done, aefw's are a translucent brown, not white, and I haven't seen any bite marks on my acros.
Here are a couple images I lifted from MelevsReef.com. The first is an AEFW. Notice how it's clear and brown. My critter was opaque and white. I say was cuz I siphoned it out of the tank after taking the picture, though if it was an aefw there are likely many more.
This is an image of AEFW bite marks from MelevsReef.com.
I have not seen this on my corals and I look for it, as do my kids whom I've trained to look for this type of injury / damage to coral. I'm not saying it couldn't be happening, just that neither myself nor my kids have noticed it. I will get out my camera and do a macro inspection of my acros this evening to double check.
I appreciate your input, even if it is scary!
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sulcata1619
New member
Ken I agree. It is definately not an AEFW. It looks like a stelatoma snail. I know I don't stelatoma right but thats the closest word I could come up with. correct me Jeff. I can't think of it. STOMATELLA snail. It just came to me. without his shell..
treesmoker
Zoa/Paly Collector
definately not a stomatella.
jkreefer
Premium Member
I am 100% sure its a aefw. I have had (way too much) personal experience, and they ARE white, clear, or light brown.
I deffinitly dont agree with you on that one Mike.
Ken, just because you don see bite marks, doesent mean you dont have them, just look at your picture and you will see that you have them. The bite marks are a more advanced population of them, you can have a coral that looks and acts totaly normal, and it can have them on it. If any of your acros have looked a little diff. or reduced PE, take it out and dip in a saltwater-iodine solution, and you should see them dropping of in about 10-20 seconds. This is only acros, no monties or anything else.
I deffinitly dont agree with you on that one Mike.
Ken, just because you don see bite marks, doesent mean you dont have them, just look at your picture and you will see that you have them. The bite marks are a more advanced population of them, you can have a coral that looks and acts totaly normal, and it can have them on it. If any of your acros have looked a little diff. or reduced PE, take it out and dip in a saltwater-iodine solution, and you should see them dropping of in about 10-20 seconds. This is only acros, no monties or anything else.
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Reef Bass
colors and textures
I love the "Hey, you posted a pic of a rhino. Don't tell me you don't have rhinos!" thing.
Thanks for your input Jeff. There isn't a "holy doo doo" smilie.
100% confident? Gosh golly gee wiz that sure takes the shine off my rainbow.
#!(% *#) *!^() @)#%&#%*(#!%
That was me doing the job of the naughty word filter and moderator making a string of adult expletives less offensive.
One on hand it seems like into every reef tank a little aefw must fall. And that negative hitchhikers are a reality, despite the best iodine dipping regime.
#!(% *#) *!^() @)#%&#%*(#!%
Ok, so instead of macro evaluation of acro flesh for bite marks, I'm going to set up a container of reef water and iodine solution (3-4mls/l) and dip the acros that I can remove without too much effort / that are not encrusted onto large rocks. Then I will examine the bottom of the container for evidence of AEFWs.
My tank HAD been on an upswing (or so I thought). Thus my corals have been exhibiting dope PE and I have not noticed one of them feeling "off", but perhaps I've been viewing my reef through happy rosy blinders.
#!(% *#) *!^() @)#%&#%*(#!%
Here comes the fun part for you Jeff - watching me in full blown denial flailing around trying to find someone to tell me that it's just some random no big deal flatworm and not aefw. Please don't be offended if I seek a second opinion. I may well end up eating a larger slice of humble pie if (when) your diagnosis is confirmed.
#!(% *#) *!^() @)#%&#%*(#!%
sulcata1619
New member
This looks like your guy but I can't find of they are good or bad. I think if they were bad there would definately be something on reef central about them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-t9kGo4lnY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-t9kGo4lnY
Reef Bass
colors and textures
Yes! A much closer visual and behavioral match to what I was seeing than the posted pics of aefws. Like the flatworm in the video, it was a cruiser, always moving, not a "make camp, lay eggs and gorge" dude. It didn't seem to prefer any particular type of substrate, continuously moving over sand, rock, clam(!). While I didn't study it extensively or plot its movements around my tank, offhand the one place I didn't see it was on any of my acros.
I feel bad contradicting Jeff, because he's the man and I'm a relative noob. That said I'm going to crawl out on a thin branch over a huge vat of humble pie and say that I don't think this is an aefw. I graduated a biology - psychology major in college and took a grueling course in invertebrate zoology from a fascist teacher who thought a student's life revolved around their course and their course alone. I learned a great deal about spineless things, including how many different flatworms there are on this planet. My critter was, in my opinion, significantly different enough in appearance and behavior from aefws to not be one.
I will dip my easily extracted acros in iodine today and examine the dip bucket for flatworms when I'm done. My oldest daughter surprised me yesterday by showing up at my front door from college down south so I won't have time until she heads back later today.
Thanks for tracking that video down Mike. I very much appreciate the input I get from experienced people like you and Jeff.
I feel bad contradicting Jeff, because he's the man and I'm a relative noob. That said I'm going to crawl out on a thin branch over a huge vat of humble pie and say that I don't think this is an aefw. I graduated a biology - psychology major in college and took a grueling course in invertebrate zoology from a fascist teacher who thought a student's life revolved around their course and their course alone. I learned a great deal about spineless things, including how many different flatworms there are on this planet. My critter was, in my opinion, significantly different enough in appearance and behavior from aefws to not be one.
I will dip my easily extracted acros in iodine today and examine the dip bucket for flatworms when I'm done. My oldest daughter surprised me yesterday by showing up at my front door from college down south so I won't have time until she heads back later today.
Thanks for tracking that video down Mike. I very much appreciate the input I get from experienced people like you and Jeff.
Reef Bass
colors and textures
With my daughter on her way back south, I got busy with some dipping. I dipped 3 acros for a minute or two each in a reef water and iodine solution with some swirling / swishing action. Jeff's posting said flatworms start to release after 10-20 seconds so I thought a minute or two would be sufficient. Boy did Plum Crazy slime. Then I rinsed them in a container of reef water with more swirling / swishing action and put them back in the tank. They're still upset with me all polyp puckered.
While they were dipping I examined each for eggs and bite marks / wounds and found none on any of the three. I then went over each of the dip and rinse containers with my macro lens and 10x magnification on top of the already macro view. I found 2 small pods and a little debris but no flatworms.
Sure, the acros I selected for dipping may not have been infected (if there is an infection). However, other than having found one random flatworm which didn't resemble or behave like the postings I've seen of aefw, I have no additional supporting evidence of aefw infestation. Time will tell. You can be sure I'll be paying attention.
While they were dipping I examined each for eggs and bite marks / wounds and found none on any of the three. I then went over each of the dip and rinse containers with my macro lens and 10x magnification on top of the already macro view. I found 2 small pods and a little debris but no flatworms.
Sure, the acros I selected for dipping may not have been infected (if there is an infection). However, other than having found one random flatworm which didn't resemble or behave like the postings I've seen of aefw, I have no additional supporting evidence of aefw infestation. Time will tell. You can be sure I'll be paying attention.
sulcata1619
New member
i think your good man. But I am still searching to see what they do eat. They are a close resemblance to a polyclad worm which eats snails and clams. But we have to keep searching.
crispyreef
New member
I don't think iodine works very well at all. You need something more aggressive like Marine Melafix. I don't want to rain on your parade, I just want you to know if you have them or not. That picture does look like one to me, I just battled them. The signs are not easily seen and you may not know unless you dip. Good luck.
Reef Bass
colors and textures
Ah, Chris. As someone who has encountered the enemy I was hoping you'd chime in. You and Jeff do provide unsettling intel from the field.
I agree my #1 priority is to know whether I have them or not. #2 is either celebrating or publically eating crow for doubting Jeff's assessment.
I hear that iodine isn't tremendously toxic to aefw. I was hoping to merely upset them enough that they could be dislodged so I could confirm their presence on the bottom of the dip container.
Is Melafix meant to kill aefw or is it just an agent which might be more apt to cause them to release their hold and fall onto the bottom of the dip container? Where can I get it?
I agree my #1 priority is to know whether I have them or not. #2 is either celebrating or publically eating crow for doubting Jeff's assessment.
I hear that iodine isn't tremendously toxic to aefw. I was hoping to merely upset them enough that they could be dislodged so I could confirm their presence on the bottom of the dip container.
Is Melafix meant to kill aefw or is it just an agent which might be more apt to cause them to release their hold and fall onto the bottom of the dip container? Where can I get it?
crispyreef
New member
I don't want to steer you the wrong way, I just want you to be sure what they are. If you see them in the sump or on the glass, chances are they are not aefw. They do travel though to get to it's food source. I used to use iodine as a dip on all new arivals but no dip is going to be completly fail safe. I found Marine Melafix to be very aggressive on pest, and pods too, with litte stress on the corals. I was dipping every couple days, overdosing with a longer soak time than suggested. AEFW are a real pain and it is imporant to get on them as soon as possible. The fw on the video looks like it is 1.5 inches long, how long was the one you saw? You may not see bit marks on a coral, possibly a little fading on an area. M-Melafix can be bought at Ceasars and is worth a try. I soak for a few minutes then blast. Believe me, I hope you don't have them.
Reef Bass
colors and textures
I picked up some Melafix from Caesars and got busy with it today. I dipped 3 more pieces (not the ones from last time with the iodine). This was a bit more difficult, as these acros were glued in place and had to be removed before dipping and reattached afterwards.
I mixed the Melafix in accordance with directions and dipped for 5 minutes, the maximum time recommended. After rinsing in another container of reef water I returned the corals to the tank.
I saw no signs of eggs, bite marks or injuries to the corals while dipping. After I had returned the corals to the tank, I examined the dipping container and the rinse container for flatworms. I found none. Zero. Squat diddly. The absence of any.
My examination of the containers was thorough. I didn't just look at them from a distance and go "I don't see any". I got out the macro lens and inspected them rigorously. Plus my camera will do a 10x view on top of the macro view which I made use of. Here was my setup:
I have dipped a total of six corals from different parts of my tank in two different dip preparations and have yet to see another flatworm besides the one oddball I saw crawling across my glass. None of my acros are displaying any signs of being off / grumpy / low PE. In fact, they've all been rocking hard lately. I am fairly sure that I do not have an aefw infestation.
I have one more card to play. While at Caesars I picked up some Flatworm Exit and tomorrow I'm putting that in. I was going to do it today, but I wanted to mix up a water change to do after application. Flatworm Exit is designed to kill primarily red planaria, which, while flatworms, are not aefws. It kills flatworms though and so in it goes. The treatment calls for substantial application of carbon afterwards to soak up the toxins released by dead red planaria. I have no red planaria, or hardly if any other flatworms. I know this because as part of my tank maintenance I insert a powerhead in the tank and blow all the rocks while filter socking my overflow to remove a lot of detritus. I do this every couple weeks and have yet to see any flatworms of any description blowing out of crevices. The last time I did this was 5 days ago, so I'm sure I don't have tons of flatworms that will release gobs of toxins. I am going to omit the carbon and do a 30% water change after treatment, however, just as a precaution.
A quick comment about Melafix. In general, it seemed that it was more toxic to critters on coral while not being as noxious to the coral itself. Things I dipped in it for the full five minutes regained their normal appearance more rapidly than when dipped in iodine. I dipped a piece of zoanthid covered coral branch and the zoas were open again in about 10-15 minutes after dipping while the things that had been hiding on it (pods, snails, even bristle worms) were dead or obviously dying in the bottom of the dip container. SPS took longer to reopen than 10 minutes but still opened faster than when dipped in iodine. Mongo like.
I mixed the Melafix in accordance with directions and dipped for 5 minutes, the maximum time recommended. After rinsing in another container of reef water I returned the corals to the tank.
I saw no signs of eggs, bite marks or injuries to the corals while dipping. After I had returned the corals to the tank, I examined the dipping container and the rinse container for flatworms. I found none. Zero. Squat diddly. The absence of any.
My examination of the containers was thorough. I didn't just look at them from a distance and go "I don't see any". I got out the macro lens and inspected them rigorously. Plus my camera will do a 10x view on top of the macro view which I made use of. Here was my setup:
I have dipped a total of six corals from different parts of my tank in two different dip preparations and have yet to see another flatworm besides the one oddball I saw crawling across my glass. None of my acros are displaying any signs of being off / grumpy / low PE. In fact, they've all been rocking hard lately. I am fairly sure that I do not have an aefw infestation.
I have one more card to play. While at Caesars I picked up some Flatworm Exit and tomorrow I'm putting that in. I was going to do it today, but I wanted to mix up a water change to do after application. Flatworm Exit is designed to kill primarily red planaria, which, while flatworms, are not aefws. It kills flatworms though and so in it goes. The treatment calls for substantial application of carbon afterwards to soak up the toxins released by dead red planaria. I have no red planaria, or hardly if any other flatworms. I know this because as part of my tank maintenance I insert a powerhead in the tank and blow all the rocks while filter socking my overflow to remove a lot of detritus. I do this every couple weeks and have yet to see any flatworms of any description blowing out of crevices. The last time I did this was 5 days ago, so I'm sure I don't have tons of flatworms that will release gobs of toxins. I am going to omit the carbon and do a 30% water change after treatment, however, just as a precaution.
A quick comment about Melafix. In general, it seemed that it was more toxic to critters on coral while not being as noxious to the coral itself. Things I dipped in it for the full five minutes regained their normal appearance more rapidly than when dipped in iodine. I dipped a piece of zoanthid covered coral branch and the zoas were open again in about 10-15 minutes after dipping while the things that had been hiding on it (pods, snails, even bristle worms) were dead or obviously dying in the bottom of the dip container. SPS took longer to reopen than 10 minutes but still opened faster than when dipped in iodine. Mongo like.
coralfarmer
Aquarist
Man, Ken you like to type. I really appreciate you sharing your experience with everyone. I'm looking forward to seeing a great close up shot of that ORA Bellina.
Reef Bass
colors and textures
Hee hee. Thanks James. I've been clocked at over 100 words/minute typing before. 
One of the most useful classes I ever took in school was typing in 8th grade. Of course, it would be rather difficult for me to develop software and websites if I couldn't type.
I know I get long winded. I try to relate my observed data, decisions made and rational for those decisions. My hope is that others can learn from my experiences, as I learn from the experiences of others.
One of the most useful classes I ever took in school was typing in 8th grade. Of course, it would be rather difficult for me to develop software and websites if I couldn't type.I know I get long winded. I try to relate my observed data, decisions made and rational for those decisions. My hope is that others can learn from my experiences, as I learn from the experiences of others.
Reef Bass
colors and textures
I treated the tank with FlatwormExit today. Followed the dosing instructions. At 45 minutes after introduction, one has the option to add 50% more medication if one has not observed a toxic impact on flatworms. I hadn't observed any toxic action, but that's because I don't think there were any flatworms in there anyway. I added 50% more as a precaution.
The directions instruct one to restore UV, ozone, etc. and to add carbon one hour after treatment. I let the tank soak 3 hours before turning my skimmer back on and doing a 30% water change.
Everything in the tank seems back to normal at this point. Not having observed any additional flatworms besides the first, I may have subjected individual corals and the entire system to unnecessary stress with multiple dipping sessions and tank wide FlatwormExit treatment and water change. On the other hand, aefw are nothing to play with and I'm pleased I took investigative and precautionary actions. Until I see evidence to the contrary, I'm thinking I'm done with this flatworm "incident".
The directions instruct one to restore UV, ozone, etc. and to add carbon one hour after treatment. I let the tank soak 3 hours before turning my skimmer back on and doing a 30% water change.
Everything in the tank seems back to normal at this point. Not having observed any additional flatworms besides the first, I may have subjected individual corals and the entire system to unnecessary stress with multiple dipping sessions and tank wide FlatwormExit treatment and water change. On the other hand, aefw are nothing to play with and I'm pleased I took investigative and precautionary actions. Until I see evidence to the contrary, I'm thinking I'm done with this flatworm "incident".
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