What is wrong with my system?

[Bluephish13]

Update

Update

LOL this is starting to become funny, another 8 days has gone. I made sure i fed really heavy this week. I put food in like all day long every day (spectrum,cyclops,flake). I even started adding a few drops of amino acids with it, i already had it and figured it would not hurt.

By the end of the night most the fish are not even interested in food, and that is rare for fish. Except the tang he eats and poops at the same time.lol

Ok so all that feeding, and no GFO or carbon for close to a month now.

I go to get my po4 checked today, and it is down even more at 0.01 again. OMG what do i got to do. I got some dirty frozen brine/and mysis shrimp to try that, but i hear larger brine is not all that nutritious to fish correct.

I think i can rule my lights out. I had par checked and it jumps around a lot but i am getting 350 at the top corals, 150 at the sand, and Spikes of 400 just under the water surface.

Big thanks to johnny c he stopped bye to check out my system. He was also at arc and watched the hanna bottom out. So if you want to add anything jon feel free.

 

[Johnny C]

No problem Brandon, I'm glad I could help. Despite the issues, your tank still looks awesome and your T5 bulbs really make the corals POP!

Gary M, RandyO and TMZ would know more about this topic than I do. I would also suggest posting on the SPS Forum, there's a ton of people on there who deal with ULNS and ZeoVit.

PS- Mysis is a </i>lot</i> more nutritious than Brine, but supplimenting with it may help to raise the PO4 a bit, and it's a nice snack your fish will appreciate.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

Brandon- in your first post you mentioned STN (slow tissue necrosis). Is this still happening to your corals?

 

[Bluephish13]

No new STN in the last month, about as long as i have been on the heavy feeding routine.

MY observations:
Any the acros with stn have stopped progressing as far as i can see.

A few tips recovered on a blue milli, re grew some tissue.

I did not notice any new growth tips that really caught my eye on anything else.

The corals that did not suffer from severe necrosis are regaining some body color.

Colors is def darker in the last month than i have ever had. This is why i really feel confident on this as my source problem. Even with my po4 at 0.01 the increase in food seems to be having some effect.

I am watching my KH /calcium closer incase my corals start to growth spurt my levels do not plummet.


I have a small splotch(one tiny stalk) of xenia in lots of light that has not grown in size in a year. (since this problem started)

:hmm5:

 

[Bluephish13]

Also my kh test kit is fairly new. I replaced it not long ago.

 

[alphaferret]

Not too much help here but am I right that alk should be done during lights out and cal during lights on periods. No offence but 20 min. apart does not seem like much.

A big ups on your rockwork-I love the open bridges-looks great!

So having a gfo and carbon reactor can be a bad thing? I was just about to get one next on my list. Might have to reconsider.

 

[Bluephish13]

alpha

Thanks for the ups, The rock formation is something i think is aiding in my nutrient export. Water flows around it very nicely. Not much rock touches glass(bottom or sides).

I have done that dosing routine also i noticed no difference to the tank. Now that i have a ph probe i would prob see a difference in ph swings.

Im sure carbon is good for lots of things, and gfo is def good for some people. The best way to know if you do is to check you po4 on a hanna tester.

I don't think my problem is a common one so read this thread sparingly.lol I do not even believe it sometimes, but i got to believe the results.

 

[alphaferret]

so looking back into the thread-I'm wondering about Mels and Gary talking about dosing several or 20 min. apart. Where did I get the info on day and night dosing. I used to dose at almost the same time but when i decided to come back to reefing one more time I got into the habit of dosing cal during the day light hours and alk during the dark hours. I thought it was to lessen the ph swing-Am I losing it?

did you use acrylic rods to hold LR together?

 

[Bluephish13]

alpha- i used PVC, and heated it to bend. It is joined in the middle and i am hoping when i move i will be able to remove the entire thing in 2 solid pieces. Future plans call for a 120gal and i hope i can just drop this structure in the 120 and build off it.


Gary/anyone-

Is potassium something worth checking. I was reading threw some zeovit forums, and potassium seems to be a key supp. in low nutrient systems.

I am going to try to get a diff. brand alk test just to make sure. Reading lots of posts that say the saliferts is 2 kh high.

Even if kh is reading high, my po4 is still .01, and nitrate 0.
Would adding more fish be a good or bad idea.? Not even sure if i have the territory for more fish, would not want to disrupt my present fish family.

Something else i noticed when i feed some my acros send out lots of white threads, and even turn a lil pale for a hr. I think it looks like a feeding response and prob not warefare.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

your Xenia is telling you that ultra low nutrients are the problem

boosting pH at night via alkalinity additions is ideal but dosing part one and two several minutes apart isn't a major problem as long as you dose into an area of high flow.

 

[alphaferret]

thanks gary

 

[tmz]

Sorry , I didn't post earlier. It's been a rough 2 weeks.

I wouldn't worry about low PO4 at this point. I would ,however, caution gererally against dropping it too quickly It takes some time for the organic phosphate you are adding with food etc. to breakdown to inorganic measureable forms. In any case natural reef values at the surface for PO4 are: .005ppm, yep two zeros.Besides there is plenty of organic phosphate for the corals to use. If you keep feeding you may worsen what might already be an excess of organic carbon.

There are troubles(inlcuding stn) reported by many when PO4 is dropped precipitopusly. However ,the reason for these problems is not clear. Increased lighting from enhanced water clarity, increased biotic precipitation(skeletal growth;PO4 inhibits calcification; when you drop it corals precipitate skeltal mass quicker) without concommitant tissue growth( usually in low nutrient systems both nitrogen and phosphorous are reduced which may make it difficult for corals to grow tissue quickly at least until they adjust to new levels) are two common themes.

In my experience and that of others, it's pretty clear that corals in low nutrient systems are more sensitive to alkalinity variations and generally do better at the lower end of the alkalinity range,say <9.5dkh. They just don't seem to keep up with heavy skeletal growth associated with higher alk and need steady alkalinity.

Bouncy alkalinity and a rapid depletion of nutrients are a hard one two punch, in my opinion.

Nitrate and/other forms of nitrogen might be an issue but I doubt ity in a fed tank ammino dosing and/or feeding would remedy that. Natural reef values for NO3 are are scant ,0.1ppm.

Gfo is gfo. There isn't any evidence of which I am aware that shows one type is more agressive than another.

Epsom salt is magnesium sulfate. Continuous use will add more sulfate and vary the natural sulfate to chloride ratio in seawater. However, since you are doing calcium chloride it won't vary it much . I would still dose about 5parts magnesium chloride to 3 parts magnesium sulfate. If you weren't dosing the calcium chloride, the ratio wouldbe 7 parts magnesium chloride to 1 part magnesium sulfate.

Xenia and chaeto do seem to be particularly sensitive to precipitous drops in nutrients.However, they can adjust and thrive without lots of growth in lower nutrient systems, in my experience.

If I had to guess I'd suspect:
First, variable alkalinity and a drop in nutrients too quickly . BTW, I use a salifert kit for alkalinity and it always reads a point or two higher than the API.
Second, a build up or organic carbon. Stronger skimming and gac via reactor will help this.
Third, a toxin ,metal or allelopathic. A series of 15% to 25% waterchanges and some poly filter will help. Perhaps some cuprisporb too. Even if it doesn't change color it will still remove metals which need not be high enough to register a color change to harm your reef.

Finally Iwould remove dyingcorals and frag off necrotic areas.

 

[tmz]

As for potassium. There is no evidence to suggest that tanks are low in potassium. It seems salt mixes do ok in replenishing it. Some zeovit systems may show some depletion but the test kit KZ reads low and is difficult to use. The Fuana Marin kit is somewhat better but still far from ideal. All in all, unless you are using the zeo system or dosing lots of carbon( ie vodka, vinegar, etc.) I wouldn't recommend dosing K unless you can confidently read the Fuana Marin kit and determine a need.

 

[Bluephish13]

thanks tom

I just had a reply that took all day to type, and it just vanished when i went to go send it. Really took a lot out of my spirit to loose that post.

Basically how do i know if i have a build up of organic carbon?. The only test i see looked like a fax machine! lol

I will remove dying corals , and frag off as much necrotic areas as i can.

I will also run polyfilter for a while longer.

 

[tmz]

Unfortunately, there is no hobby grade test for organic carbon. Other parameters, such as orp might give a hint but it's more guesswork. GAC is the best way to insure some removal; maybe some purigen too. Keeping the tank clean of decaying material will help too. Gac with ozone is shown to be even more effective in one study. TOC (total organic carbon) is often overlooked but it is one of the three(C,N,P) major elements used by non photosynthetic organisms( they make there own from CO2).While we can measure Phosphorous and Nitrogen, measuring Carbon takes some sophisticated equipment beyond the hobbyist. TOC has been shown to be harmful to corals ,perhaps by upsetting bacterial symbionts.

 

[Bluephish13]

update

update

well I will be moving soon so not sure what is too come of the tank.

still no carbon or GFO, and no water changes.

No new signs of necrosis.

Colors are improving drastically. Polyp extension is better.

Growth has started again and have become extremely fast, with new tips on everything. Still too fast for tissue growth on some, they have not adjusted.

I still think i have too low nutrients.

TMZ i am curious about when we talked about the increased precipitation of skeletal mass when p04 is dropped too low, and tissue growth cannot keep up. Just odd, any possibility i am lacking nitrogen? Do you think i am on my way back up from ULN and they just yet to fully adjust.

would aminos help with tissue growth? You may have answered this for me already sorry.

Maybe still OC build up, but i am def seeing a difference from the increased feedings. Growth like i have never seen, growth was completely stopped on most corals previously.

I am also getting a lot of bright green body/flesh color back on the corals that were purchased with green in them.

 

[tmz]

I'm not sure why stn and "burnt tips" occur at higher alkalinity and low nutrient levels especially when PO4 is dropped precipitously but they do based on my experience and the anecdotal accounts of many others. It could be from: accelerated skeletal growth and tissue unable to keep up;interference in the corals mechanism for directing precipitation,imbalances in symbiont bacteria or ?????

I don't think corals use much inorganic phosphate . .Nitrogen would be a more likely suspect since they use it for proteins dna etc. Marine organisms contain much more nitrogen than phosphorous about 16 to 1. Amminos do offer a source of bio available nitrogen. I have used them sparingly form time to time and haven't really noted significant changes except those I wanted to see but may not have really seen without my "rose colored glasses". There is much to learn about ammino acids and I hope to learn more in the near future as more information about their role in corals and the effects of specific ammino acids is begining to emerge.
Aside from nitrogen as coral food there is another aspect to a ntolgen deficiency.. Heterotrophic bacteria use nitrogen phosphorous and organic carbon. Much more carbon is used than nitrogen and much more nitrogen than phosphorous. While the ratios vary by organism an illustrative example can be found in the redfield ratio based on measurements of these elements in phyyoplankton if my memory serves me correcltly(116 parts organic carbon to 16 parts nitrogen to 1 part phosphorous). So if you have 0 nitrogen available perhaps these bacteria areN limited leaving some organic carbon behind leading to buildups which can be quite harmful to sps. Gac can help remove some of it. Again though we are talking about very low amounts for a deficiency with surface reef waters noted at about .1 to.2 ppm NO3 and only .005 PO4. It's hard to imagine these levels in a fed tank unless carbon dosing is in play. In any case modrate ammino dosing shouldn't hurt anything.

 

[pascal32]

Bluephish13 - any progress? I'm having similar issues and learning from you