What to do with the bottom of an overflow?

garbled

New member
I'm setting up a big tank right now, and I have two very large overflow boxes on the tank. Each of them has a large stockman standpipe, and a few return lines coming through it.

Because of the standpipe, the waterlevel should pretty much remain near the top of the overflow, and there shouldn't be much activity in the lower sections of the overflow. I'm wondering what I should do with the lower area of that overflow. Should I put a pump in there to keep the water moving down there to keep detritus from accumulating at the bottom? My other thought was to get a bunch of small rocks and/or large pvc fittings and fill it with those, as well as a small pump, to provide an area for sponge growth.

What do other people do with this dead space on thier tanks?
 
I ended up using both my bulkheads for drain and bringing the return over the back with a manifold.. The smaller one which is easy to overpower is w/o a standpipe so that detrius doesn't build up. The larger one has a durso on it. It seemed to help a lot as the tank I had upgraded from was pretty gross down in there.
 
you know.. thats not a bad idea. I never even considered using the returns as drains. I wonder how well that would work. (flow vs the overflow size)
 
I try to syphon the bottom of my overflow every so often...when I recently switched tanks I realized the mess that accumilates at the bottom of the over flow...I would recommend some type of attention to this area???
 
Mine is a 90 so I have a 1" and a 3/4 inch. 1" will take 600 and the 3/4 I don't know the exact so I'll guess only 300. I think I'm running around 700 to the display so it fills up due to the 3/4" not able to keep up and then the water level uses the durso on the 1". It keeps the overflow very clean and I can go underneath and look up through it. My last tank only made it a month or so before it was a mess in there. It has to be a nitrate sink with all that junk.

One thing though if you overpower the return line is to put a basket type strainer on it or a snail may block it and if your flow is more than the normal return can take then you may have overflow problems. I used a standard basket strainer and then cut out some of the plastic parts. Also, the overflow box teeth are slightly lacking if you go past the standard flow rating so I popped out the semi-circle on it that you would normally pop out and have the lockline go through. That gave a little more area for the water to flow. Then I took a skinny strip of plastic and superglued it from the inside like a tooth to keep small fish etc from going through that half circle I popped out.

It that was confusing I"ll take a pic if you want.
 
I use the base of my overflow as a remote DSB. It's also a great place to imprison hitchhikers and sentence them to a life with hard labour. Aiptasia, mojano, hairy crabs, starfish, and hermit crabs do a great job of reducing and removing detritus that settles there. Non-reef-safe invertebrates are the most efficient scavengers.

You could also add some eggcrate panels to provide sites for water polishing benthic invertebrates like tube worms, tunicates and sponges. The eggcrate panels act as a lattice to support 360 degrees of incrusting, sessile invertebrates.

Here's a picture of a 48" high overflow box with a 24" deep sand bed. This gave me 15 gallons of sand bed, without any loss of usable real estate. I would have gone up to the base of the Stockman device, but research has indicated that any deeper has no benefit. The three 1.5" Stockman overflows only need 4-5" at the top, similar to your set-up.

IMG_6238.jpg


The top 2.5" of sand is white (aerobic), while the lower portion is pigmented due to anaerobic bacteria activity.
 
Hey Mr. Wilson,

That is a great idea for the overflow area using it as a DSB.

If you ever want to change out the DSB if you are worried about the nutrient sink finally filling up and releasing stuff back into the water all you have to do is turn off your pump from the sump, divert the drain line from your display tank to garbage can, remove your stand pipe and flush the overflow area to clear out all the sand without making a mess in the display tank. Once the area is cleaned out, you replace the standpipe, put in new sand bed and seed it with any creatures if you want from the flushed sand, put the drain line back to sump, and turn your recirculating pump back on.

Cheers,
Doug
 
Yeah... my initial idea was similar to the eggcrate one. I was thinking of putting a pump at the top, about 4 inches below the water level in the overflow, and then run the output of the pump down to the bottom, to keep the water moving around down there. Then filling it with big pvc fittings to provide a low-flow area for sponge/tubeworm etc.

There are quite a few other good ideas here though.. now my decision is even harder. :)
 
I don't think an additional pump is required in the overflow. It won't become anoxic with just the passive flow it gets from the overflow at the surface. Benthic invertebrates thrive in slow moving water.

I don't ever change the sand, unless it becomes solidified. Any bound silicate or phosphate will go back into solution as ferric oxide exchange resins remove them from the water column. You will see this happen after a large water change; your phosphates drop, and return to the original value within hours at it leaches out of the calcareous media.

Once calcareous media develops a bacterial film, it's less efficient at adsorbing phosphates etc. Ion exchange resins and polymeric absorbents are far more efficient.

I would use a Shop Vac and a nose plug if I ever had to remove the sand from the box.
 
I wasn't worried about anoxic conditions, more just a little motion at the bottom, and a slow upwelling of water from the bottom up over time. When I say pump, I really mean one of those tiny 20gph desk-fountain pumps. It's a pretty big overflow chamber, and I thought if the water swirled a bit down there it might not accumulate detritus as much.
 
Block the light to the overflow area and you won't have algae issues. Don't glue your standpipes in place, slip fit them. When I do a regular w/c, I remove the pipes and blow the water into the overflows once they have drained. It keeps them clean and feeds the SPS at the same time.
 
I have a thought what if you drill a small hole at the bottom of your supply riser just to give a small upwelling of water thru the DSB?? Just a thought.

Steve
Miami Florida
 
easttn is right on the money..

This is also a great way to get fish out.. What I do it turn off the return, drain most/all of the water out, and scoup the fish out with my hand or a net.
 
Make sure the construction of your tank and overflows can take the pressure of draining the overflow boxes while the tank is full of water. If it's suitably sized glass, you're okay, but many acrylic boxes can't take the pressure.
 
I have a thought what if you drill a small hole at the bottom of your supply riser just to give a small upwelling of water thru the DSB?? Just a thought. I would also sugest wraping a greenie pad around the section of pipe with the hole and securing the greenie pad with zip ties. I am thinking of implementing this on my 210 aga. Thoughts?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8840985#post8840985 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr.wilson
I use the base of my overflow as a remote DSB. It's also a great place to imprison hitchhikers and sentence them to a life with hard labour. Aiptasia, mojano, hairy crabs, starfish, and hermit crabs do a great job of reducing and removing detritus that settles there. Non-reef-safe invertebrates are the most efficient scavengers.

You could also add some eggcrate panels to provide sites for water polishing benthic invertebrates like tube worms, tunicates and sponges. The eggcrate panels act as a lattice to support 360 degrees of incrusting, sessile invertebrates.

Here's a picture of a 48" high overflow box with a 24" deep sand bed. This gave me 15 gallons of sand bed, without any loss of usable real estate. I would have gone up to the base of the Stockman device, but research has indicated that any deeper has no benefit. The three 1.5" Stockman overflows only need 4-5" at the top, similar to your set-up.

IMG_6238.jpg


The top 2.5" of sand is white (aerobic), while the lower portion is pigmented due to anaerobic bacteria activity.
Mr. Wilson,
How long have you had it like this? I thought R.Shimek had said that without the proper infauna, the dsb would harden (becoming useless) and that, regardless of total sand volume, a 30g tank was the smallest footprint one could expect the infauna to be successful in.

Please know, I'm not trying to inform you - I've seen you around and am pretty sure you've educated yourself about what you're doing - I'm just wanting to hear another view, which you clearly must have. :)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9045951#post9045951 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Angel*Fish
Mr. Wilson,
How long have you had it like this? I thought R.Shimek had said that without the proper infauna, the dsb would harden (becoming useless) and that, regardless of total sand volume, a 30g tank was the smallest footprint one could expect the infauna to be successful in.

Please know, I'm not trying to inform you - I've seen you around and am pretty sure you've educated yourself about what you're doing - I'm just wanting to hear another view, which you clearly must have. :)

Don't worry at all about second guessing me, I'm here to learn just like everyone else. The good thing about this forum is it isn't over-run by experts that won't consider a new idea that stays from their conventions. That's why you see more new innovations born here than on any other aquarium forum. Science is our friend, but it is flawed, especially at the hobby end. We are the pioneers, so there are no right or wrong answers.

Unfortunately, this is a very recent idea that challenges such conventions. From my experience, it takes about a year for a sand bed to become fully functional, so the jury will be out for a while on this tank. The other factor that clouds the issue, is the tank is only a few months old, and has not accumulated nitrate as yet. I believe there are enough other nutrients for the life in the sand bed to develop, nonetheless.

On the plus side, the sand I used was at the bottom of a commercial live rock vat for about nine months, at a depth of 18". I'm sure it's saturated with orthophosphates, but nothing that phosphate remover can't handle. You have to take the good with the bad. One interesting find was some tubifex-like worms that live just below the surface. They borrow to a depth of about 5" max, from my observations thus far.

Denitrificaton is carried out by macro-organisms (benthic invertebrates such as serpulid & polychaet worms, tunicates, sponges, and zooplankton) as well as micro-organisms (largely anaerobic bacteria called pseudomonas). Both of these methods of denitrification occur on and in deep sand beds, and are of equal importance.

In the case of macro-organisms, they require a large footprint in order to establish enough sites for a stable, efficient colony, as Dr. Ron suggests. In the case of bacteria, it requires a deep bed for adequate sites and anoxic conditions. As such, a bacterial bed does not require a large footprint, but rather, a large hand-print (if such a term exists).

The growth of benthic invertebrates is fostered in a "Benthic Zone" as part of a "Duplex Filtration System", in this particular tank. The egg-crate structure located in the sump, provides exponentially more viable surface area for benthic invertebrates, than a sand bed can offer. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=969713

I've read in other DSB threads that 22" is the maximum effective depth, but I don't know the source of that belief. Apparently, any greater depth has diminished returns. While I believe that life goes on at greater depths, it's plausible that the micro-organisms that we have on our live rock, aren't conducive to anything deeper than 22". True sand denizens from bona-fide live sand, may change this depth limitation however.

I haven't read Dr. Rons article, so I'm not sure if his 30" x12" footprint, standard is taken out of context or not. I think he's referring only to macro-organisms with the term "infauna". The solidification of sand is a chemical process, spurred on by biological activity and subsequent acidic conditions. Burrowing invertebrates cannot inhibit localized acidic conditions. They can break-up sand as it binds to certain extent, but not enough to keep-up and certainly not at greater depths. Solidification may be inevitable, and may or may not be detrimental.

Solidified sand is useless to benthic invertebrates, but I don't believe it to be adverse conditions for bacteria. The whole reason why many sand beds have been moved to a remote location, is to exclude sand-sifting creatures like gobies, stars and cucumbers, as they interfere with the anoxic conditions and stability of the bacterial colony. The DSB bucket idea is based on the exclusion of macro-organisms in the sand bed, with the focus on micro-organisms (bacteria).
 
Mr. Wilson,
Please read my original reply.
You do not think my idea would work? I believe that the water that had already been thru my filter system would be sufficiently clean of particulate as to not clog the DSB? Also since my tank is 29" high the DSB would be deep enough that the oxygenated water introduced at the bottom of the DSB would be consumed in the first few inces leaving maybe 15 or more inches for anaerobic bacteria to flourish?
 
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