Well, you generally cannot detect low enough with a test kit to have confidence that it is ok. You'll just have to hope for the best after careful cleaning. 
What you need to know about copper and coral
- Thread starter IridescentLily
- Start date
In an operating reef tank, I'd aim for 10 ppb total copper or less simply because my tank seemed to be ok at that level. More might be ok and less might be better.
HighlandReefer
Team RC
The big question is how does one determine the total copper level in their tank?
Would you trust AWT's testing method for total copper? Perhaps ENC is a better choice for additional bucks?
Would you trust AWT's testing method for total copper? Perhaps ENC is a better choice for additional bucks?
In an operating reef tank, I'd aim for 10 ppb total copper or less simply because my tank seemed to be ok at that level. More might be ok and less might be better.
Thanks Randy!
FWIW, as an exercise I tried to detect 20 ppb Cu in NSW, that worked. Even worked when first "spiked" and a huge amount of EDTA corresponding to a final 0.5 mM added. However, in the last case the estimated recovery was 75%.
I think 15 ppb Cu would also be possible, colorimetrically. I would consider 10 ppb a huge challenge in the presence of (multidentate) ligands.
The big question is how does one determine the total copper level in their tank?
Would you trust AWT's testing method for total copper? Perhaps ENC is a better choice for additional bucks?
AWT, is mistaking in the NSW copper concentration:
"Copper (Cu++) Natural Seawater Value: 0.030 mg/L Acceptable Range: 0.000 to 0.030 mg/L"
from http://www.aqua-medic.com/aquariumwatertesting/SampleReportVersion3.pdf
HighlandReefer
Team RC
I am unaware that Kalk has high levels of aluminum?
http://www.enclabs.com/question.html
From this link to ENC Labs:
"How does Aluminum affect my marine system?
Aluminum is acutely toxic to fish {Aquatic Toxicology 31 (1995) 347-356} and invertebrates. Synthetic salts are notorious for containing elevated levels of this element due to impurities found in the chemicals which they are made from. Additionally, many kalkwasser mixes inherently contain substantial amounts of this undesirable component. Aluminum is very difficult to analyze at low levels in the "rich" matrix of seawater. No commercially available kits truly measure the total Aluminum concentration.
The biological effects of excess levels of Aluminum are unclear. Different lifeforms have different levels of tolerance to this potentially toxic component. If elevated levels are found, one can easily change salt mixes or, if possible use natural seawater which contains very low levels of Aluminum."
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I can't find what type of copper ENC tests for or methods used. It just states copper. The AWT site only mentions Cu++ for their test and if so 30 ppb would be quite high IMHO for Cu++, unless there is something I don't understand regarding these tests?
Perhaps none of these labs can be trusted to provide results we want?
http://www.enclabs.com/question.html
From this link to ENC Labs:
"How does Aluminum affect my marine system?
Aluminum is acutely toxic to fish {Aquatic Toxicology 31 (1995) 347-356} and invertebrates. Synthetic salts are notorious for containing elevated levels of this element due to impurities found in the chemicals which they are made from. Additionally, many kalkwasser mixes inherently contain substantial amounts of this undesirable component. Aluminum is very difficult to analyze at low levels in the "rich" matrix of seawater. No commercially available kits truly measure the total Aluminum concentration.
The biological effects of excess levels of Aluminum are unclear. Different lifeforms have different levels of tolerance to this potentially toxic component. If elevated levels are found, one can easily change salt mixes or, if possible use natural seawater which contains very low levels of Aluminum."
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I can't find what type of copper ENC tests for or methods used. It just states copper. The AWT site only mentions Cu++ for their test and if so 30 ppb would be quite high IMHO for Cu++, unless there is something I don't understand regarding these tests?
Perhaps none of these labs can be trusted to provide results we want?
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I discuss aluminum and other metals in limewater here:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-04/rhf/feature/index.php
I'm not sure how much actually gets into the aquarium, and if so, in what form. Alumina particles might be less of a concern than free aluminum ions of various sorts.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-04/rhf/feature/index.php
I'm not sure how much actually gets into the aquarium, and if so, in what form. Alumina particles might be less of a concern than free aluminum ions of various sorts.
Thanks Randy!
FWIW, as an exercise I tried to detect 20 ppb Cu in NSW, that worked. Even worked when first "spiked" and a huge amount of EDTA corresponding to a final 0.5 mM added. However, in the last case the estimated recovery was 75%.
I think 15 ppb Cu would also be possible, colorimetrically. I would consider 10 ppb a huge challenge in the presence of (multidentate) ligands.
Would this be a saleable kit, or a Salifert lab method?
OK, thanks.
This is the result I referred to earlier in this thread about another meterial removing copper. So GFO might be usefully exporting some copper from our systems.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/2/chemistry
from it:
"GFO (at least the brand tested) has a high affinity for phosphorus and silica and rapidly removes ortho-phosphate and silicates. Copper in the free form is removed, while ferric iron is added, though in a particulate and not soluble form. Zinc, manganese, and cobalt are also removed though concentrations never fell to critical concentrations. It is possible that the testing process reported weakly-chelated metals."
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/2/chemistry
from it:
"GFO (at least the brand tested) has a high affinity for phosphorus and silica and rapidly removes ortho-phosphate and silicates. Copper in the free form is removed, while ferric iron is added, though in a particulate and not soluble form. Zinc, manganese, and cobalt are also removed though concentrations never fell to critical concentrations. It is possible that the testing process reported weakly-chelated metals."
HighlandReefer
Team RC
Wow, nice article & an eye opener. Thanks for sharing Randy.
Yes, those of us using GFO might be doing ourselves an unexpected favor with respect to copper buildup.
So my AWT just came back with .05 Copper or 50 ppb. Is that enough copper to have coral RTN/STN issues? Are corals or inverts more sensitive to CU?
HighlandReefer
Team RC
Assuming the test results for copper represent total copper, then 50 ppm should be reduced down to at least 30 ppb if not lower. Whether or not this level will effect your coral depends on different factors, but could cause problems. Invertebrates may be effected at this level as well, but again it depends on several factors.
Are you supplementing micro-ingredients?
Are you supplementing micro-ingredients?
HighlandReefer
Team RC
Yes, 0.05 mg/L is equal to very, very close to 50 ppb for our purposes here.
Keep in mind that there are some copper contaminates in your alk, calcium and mag supplements. The ionic form that copper takes in the supplements is much more toxic than once it combines with organics (lignands) in the tank water. Total copper includes all forms of copper including the less toxic organic forms. The salt mixes contain the inorganic forms of copper, which is why it is recommended to only change say 30% of your tank water or less at a time.
Running GAC if your are not currently doing this will help remove the organic forms of copper. Running Cuprisorb and polyfilters will remove the inorganic forms of copper which are much more toxic to our organisms. One reason why it is not recommended to add too much of the alk, calcium and mag supplements at one time.
Your fish foods contain the organic forms of copper.
Bacteria and algae will help remove copper when they are skimmed out.
Keep in mind that there are some copper contaminates in your alk, calcium and mag supplements. The ionic form that copper takes in the supplements is much more toxic than once it combines with organics (lignands) in the tank water. Total copper includes all forms of copper including the less toxic organic forms. The salt mixes contain the inorganic forms of copper, which is why it is recommended to only change say 30% of your tank water or less at a time.
Running GAC if your are not currently doing this will help remove the organic forms of copper. Running Cuprisorb and polyfilters will remove the inorganic forms of copper which are much more toxic to our organisms. One reason why it is not recommended to add too much of the alk, calcium and mag supplements at one time.
Your fish foods contain the organic forms of copper.
Bacteria and algae will help remove copper when they are skimmed out.
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