When Good LFS's Go Bad

Re: When Good LFS's Go Bad

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9361840#post9361840 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Lev F.
Oh boy, another rant.

This is just to let off some steam. My favourite LFS was the greatest LFS I had ever visited. The people were knowledgeable, the environment was always clean, the holding tanks were large, and the fish and inverts they sold were ALWAYS possible to keep in captivity. They once got in a Spotted Filefish by accident (they ordered orangetail filefish), and they put it in their coral tank to help it survive. At the back tank, which was supposed to have sharks, had a lot of "rescued, un-buyable" fish, such as fish with missing eyes, large fish returned to the store ( like a 2-3 foot long snowflake moray they had) and such. I knew both of the managers well, and they also knew me well, and we would trade coral frags regularly. the other members of the team knew me quite well also.


But one day, it changed. About a month ago, one of the managers quit the job. A new manager came to take his place. how bad could it be? Very bad indeed. he fired half of the team, and replaced them with Petco-like knowledge employees that can't tell a feather duster from a tube anemone. But it gets worse. He was being such a ******,and so full of himself, that the other manager (the guy who worked the fish room, and placed the orders), quit also. This is when things started to go down the drain. (no pun intended!) Things started coming in that shouldn't have.

At first it was minor. A couple of Flagfin angelfishes and a Rock Beauty. Then they started getting Moorish Idols. P. Tuka was starting to become a regular import. And they ordered twice the amount of stock that they could possibly hold. The once-large holding tanks had been divided by plastic dividers so it would be easier to catch the concentrated fish. The prices started rising. the A. Nummifer that I obtained for $29.99, were being sold for $200 as "rare black frogfish." The shark tank that held the unwanted fish was destroyed, the rocks removed, and now it holds a single pipe, which the snowflake moray use(d) to hide in. They also put an enormous A. commerson in the tank. It ate everything but the eel. The eel couldn't really move from that one pipe. It died. On the tank were some drawings of sharks and it read "SHARKS COMING SOON!!" the tank was 4'000 gallons. They ordered a couple of blacktips. they died on their first night in the tank.

Then the tanks were being crammed with incompatibilities. Triggers with lionfish. Large Angelfishes with Anthias. But yesterday was where I found it to be the most disturbing I had ever seen it. The once Nice, Friendly, Knowledgeable LFS, had turned into somthing like PETCO.

All of the tanks were divided with eggcrate or plastic dividers. Dottybacks, Grammas, and Reef Lobsters were condemned to little plastic containers with no shelter to prevent them from fighting or eating others. A 5 inch container held 4, 5 inch long toad fish, which were practically sitting on each other. No shelter was provided. And here is the scariest of all, the fish I saw that day that were occupying those tanks that were impossible, to near impossible to keep in captivity:

Moorish Idols
P. Tuka, about 10 individuals
Spotted Filefish
Triangle Butterflyfish, a pair.
Crinoids.

and a couple of other species I can't remember.

And the other ones. Take this as literally as it comes: THE FISH WERE RIPPING EACH OTHER APART! Lionfish with clipped fins, Frogfish housed with bite-sized morsels, Anthias with practically no fins, dead fish in every tank.


Basically, it's gone. One small change in management, and a nice fish store turns into a money hungry warehouse. I could go on, but I think i have said enough. Thanks for listening.
Click to expand...

change in management happens because of the owner, where the buck eventually stops-shouldn't your dissapointment be directed towards the owner who allowed/let/permitted/caused the change to happen ?
 
Why not cut this off at the source, the collectors, making a few cents for the specimen.
Click to expand...

gtrestoration> thought of that too actually, but there are far too many sources here, and the suppliers tend to be ummm.. violent. :(

and if you got no money to buy food for your family, i don't think you'd listen to anyone giving you some advice on what to get and what not to get.

we've talked to some fisherfolks in a certain beach, and most of their income comes from collecting exotic species, including sharks and rays. (I'd like to tell you guys about the sea turtles sold for 80 pesos [around 2 dollars, more or less] incident but that's another sad story.) We've asked them what species are always on demand, most species are almost impossible to keep. Most are sold to importers, the remaining rejects are distributed to common LFS here.
 
^^

I wonder if it is actually making money? Seems like the place is in disrepair and anyone who walks in can see it...

Who wants to buy fish that are all tattered, unhealthy and with dead fish everywhere? This house of horrors will not be too appealing and is probably bleeding money...
 
I can relate to the story that started this thread.. although it is not to that extreme.. I live in rural mississippi, and there is only worth while LFS that I know of... It is about 30 minutes from me... There is actually one in my own town, but it is called "All Gods Creatures" Pet Store... I went in there and they had so many animals that it was sick... The Marine selection was pityful... anyway the good one that I used to go to was a relatively small store... The guy who owns it is a marine bio, and all of his employees were hobbyists... They had nice selections of everything and the livestock was healthy... They did not have many holding tanks making it hard for them to do anything but stock fish etc that were compatable with each other... Everyone in there was a huge help.

Fastforward several years... The owner leased another space by the new Mall which is a huge shopping place for everyone around numerous counties... I mean you can go to this mall and it will take you 1.5 hours to get back to the interstate... this is because it is the only place to shop for about 100 miles in any direction... so anyway when the place first opened in the new location it looked very promising and all the same employees stayed during the move... This place is about triple the size of the other,and the livestock room was in the back... they build rows of tanks around all four walls which was really nice compared to what the old store used to be like.. all cramped and everything... they kept it like this for a while, and then he decided to put up a couple of rows in the middle like an island... you can hardly get around in there now, and you constantly have to move for all the people in there that are really just killing time brousing... they will be shopping and just happen to see the store... most people will go in there just because this is not a common sight in this part of the country... they are curious what a real "AQUARIUM"
 
well I was not finished, but it decided to go ahead an post anyway... must have hit a wrong key... back to my issue with the LFS... When I am in a LFS I tend to wanna stand in front of each tank and just stare at the things that I like to observe how everything is... I cant even get a good look at what he has anymore... I think that all the comotion (<--- dont know about that spelling) got to the employees... They must have quit because I have not seen them in there in some time... they were the most helpful... the owner is very knowledgable, but he is def. in it for the money because he really has no time for q&a sessions... most of the employees he used to have where very interested in talking to people that actually care about thier tanks... the worst thing I guess is that the place has totally gone to you know what... The fish are all crammed in there, and they go like hot cakes... this IMO makes him order vast amounts of the popular "finding nemo" type fish... none of them really get to spend anytime recovering from their capture, shipping, unpacking etc... there seems to be at least 2 dead fish in every tank that are being eaten by the others that are alive... the ones that are alive look sick,and are missing fins... if they do have fins they are all torn to shreds... The soft type corals are all colorless or closed... This guy used to have a 300 gallon reef tank that sat on the counter by the register when you walked in... He took the reef out of it when he moved... now the 300 gallon consists of a deep sand bed w/ the fake plant/ algae looking decorations... it has about 6 Huge fish in it that are healthy but not for sale... one of the fish is a damsel that I used to have... I wanted to get it out of tank because it had gotten too large so I traded it to him... There is also a HUGE Queen Angel in it, but none of these fish are for sale... This bothers me because they are the only ones worth buying... He also used to have a BEAUTIFUL Nano Reef... I mean i used to stand in front of it and drool, but it has even been pushed to the side... the only way it is even recognizable anymore is for the live rock and the inverts that still live in it.. the reef is gone.

I understand that this man has probably quadrupled his business and that is great, but I just hate to see a that a wonderful source for marine life has turned into a sort of reef WalMart... If I had to compare just the fish to anything it would be to WalMart as far as healthyness and being cared for.

I hope things change... I really feel for the guy because I asked him about the 2 reefs discussed above and you could see it on his face... He really felt bad about the fact that they were not taken care of... I dont know that he ever meant for it to become what it did... I hope it changes for him real soon, and everyone else for that matter
 
"the owner is very knowledgable, but he is def. in it for the money because he really has no time for q&a sessions"

why should a store owner take time out of his unbelievably busy day to do your research for you ? (unless you're indicating a sale via your questions ;) ) :p

this was always a sore spot with me when i was a lfs retail salesperson-yahoos would come and pick my brain for hours every day, keep me from getting my jobs done, and walk out without buying anything-after a very short while, one learns to not take that risk with most, if not all, people

nothing personal-you have to understand that when running a small BUSINESS, it is indeed all about the money

the only thing an lfs should ever have to do is provide good quality livestock, guide customers to proper compatability, when they make a poor choice-either tankmate, or system wise, and provide proper equipment recommendations-the problem with the average joe shmoe hobbyists is that 99% of the time, they go ahead and do what they want, and ignore the lfs advice anyway

the 'good listener' customer numbers MAYBE one per thousand ;)

the fact that the store has 'gone to pot' is inexcusable, and should tell you that it's not worth visiting-why would you even want to help support a store with that attitude by buying even one of the 'show' fish ?

trust me-he didn't feel bad about squat-there's absolutely no reason to not take care of one's store animals-he just had 'more important' things to do (as one whos pulled many, and still pulls, 12-18 hr days as an employee, i think i know what's possible for a store owner to do, heh)-if he truly felt bad, he'd be staying there after hours and MAKING IT RIGHT ;)-he'd also be a far smarter businessman for doing so.
 
I can relate as well. I worked at an LFS until just very recently. We had a good manager/supervisor before (a good friend, actually) who kept everything ethical and still (a shock to all the unethical moneygrubbers out there) PROFITABLE. Yes, God, it is entirely possible to do. So he, doing what anyone would naturally do (absolutely not faulting him at all), moves on to bigger and better things at the Georgia Aquarium. Well, the powers that be place the old freshwater supervisor as the new saltwater supervisor and things went completely downhill. The new one is completely (utterly) closed minded and rooted in what may as well be archaic fishkeeping. They know next to nothing about saltwater fish, so they order everything (including TONS of things that can't be kept). This also includes getting ailing livestock that shouldn't be sold. I brought all of this to their attention and hte reply I got was "I don't care as long as we sell it before it dies." :mad2: What made it so bad was that they had no intention of stopping KNOWING that there is a problem. Needless to say, I had to tell them enough is enough, so I quit. I have no plans on going back in the future for any reason, not even to purchase things. The management (including the supervisor) never even gave my input/opinions the light of day. I was always completely disregarded, even after being there for 5 years. Not to be conceited, but it's their loss.
 
Ok... I meant to answer this sooner, but oh well...

"why should a store owner take time out of his unbelievably busy day to do your research for you ? (unless you're indicating a sale via your questions ) :p" QUOTE FROM VITZ

This store owner knows that I dont come in there and not buy anything... He should know the difference between who is in there BS'ing around, and who is in there as a hobbyist... I will give you a for example so that you know what I mean.

For Example: I had a 55 gallon FO... I had been in there several times in the time that this tank had been running because it belonged to my father in law... Who got me into the hobby, damn him... LOL ... but anyway I had always come in there to get my supplies and fish, and never darkened the door unless I bought something... So when I decided to go with larger system, and try my hand a starting a reef I went to his store... I bought the tank, stand, filters, skimmer, lights, live rock, sand, fish, supplies, and I mean I spent a fortune... I could have done all of this relatively cheap compared to his prices, but I wanted there to always be a good LFS around... So I supported him... The problem I always had with him is that even after all of this, his employees which were in the hobby themselves always had to answer my questions... If they were not in there and it was just him and some of the unknowing employees he had, and I had a question I was SOL... I would estimate that I spent around $2500 or more on a 90 gallon tank that I could have done for much cheaper... I just think that customers like that should be shown a little respect... He would absolutely pay any attention that he has to someone in there just buying or doing something absolutely unreasonable... So even if it the goal of a small business LFS is just to make money... He should have still been willing to answer any and every question because he knew that I was going to spend money in there no matter what... Now all the helpful people that worked there are gone, and it is pretty much just him in there... He still pretty much acts the same way, and that is why I only go in there for supplies at this point... I still spend money everytime I go in the doors, and it is still a pretty good bit too... I know I have been in there 3 times in the last month and have spent atleast 80 each time.

So after all that... All I have to say is that " I hope it works out for him and that things begin to look a little bit better"

The other day when I was in there... atleast you could tell that he had worked on his large reef tank, and also his nano reef... they were mere skeletons of what they were before, but you could tell that it bothered him that I was asking what happened to them... I think it actually made him want to do something about it
 
my statement was meant to be a general one, not directed to you in particular ;)

most lfs owners/operators have learned over the years that most people are NOT worth any invested time at all, given the high premium and overhead that running an lfs entails-and that most lfs owners see a more short term, rather than long term r.o.i. point of view ;)
 
this is why i like online shopping.... I hope my this doesnt happen to my lfs, my lfs is awsome and they deffinatly put fish over money, problem is the put so much effort in there fish and tanks, that you are to one paying for the extra effort, everything is overpriced there.....
 
There is also a lfs in my area which sucks badly. Customer service is horrible and his corals are just overpriced and full of flatworms. When I asked if he could give me some flatworm exit so that if I get an infestation from the flatworms that were on the rock were the coral was, he said no.

I hope stores like the one the topic starter stated and ones like mine just lose out on customers and have to close doors. We do not need stores like that.

Like one person said above, I really like spending money on online places because its usually from another reefer who really cares about his customers and his livestock.

Mike
 
hay call p.e.t.a. ,and thell go juge judy on ther [violation]! p.s. profanity not removed.
 
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