Where are the crazy cool acros coming from?

Where are businesses like Two Guys corals, cornbred, sexy corals, battle corals, etc getting their corals from? Are they from wholesalers in the US, collections pieced together from years of collecting, shipped straight from Indo, Australia, Fiji, etc? The acros that my LFS gets in seem to be the same run-of-the-mill corals with every order. Do the coral shipments get picked over as soon as they land at LAX? Or is it one big secret haha.
 
A little of each scenario I would assume. Some of them get corals from hobbiests and slap their name on them too. Also they have the money and connections to buy some of the high priced pieces some wholesalers sell for high prices.

If you have the ability to buy boxes straight from collectors, you will eventually find a really nice piece. Sometimes they even look like poo when they come in and color up to be really nice. Finding a place that does not do any cherry picking when transhipping is the key. But hard to know if that happens or not if you don't have connections at that point.
 
If you will buy a whole box of stuff at "ultra" prices ($250-1000 a piece), then you will get one colony that is spectacular. If you can keep it alive, then you can have a nice named piece. If not, then you have 5-10K worth of so-so stuff and that shipment was a loss. The more that you do this, the more that you get the call when something awesome comes in.

I am not saying that they suffer and don't make money, but also do not think that this is all just easy money in the bank. They don't just get to cherry pick the best stuff for cheap and print money. You will see boxes of skeletons of dead and brown corals that get sent along with the awesome ones.

Like said above, they also put their name on stuff that was named already.
 
A lot of the big guys go diving themselves and look for what they want. One thing I do know is they all come from the ocean!
 
Depends on type of coral and even then there are several methods which include trading with others at trade shows, trading with customers and the most common...using wholesalers. Sps wholesale comes a lot from Bali/indo right now, you can order a wholesale box with 1 ultra, 4 grade A, 4 grade B etc and the ultras and grade A's are fox flames, pikachus, rainbow looms that just dont have a name brand name on them because they came direct.

Zoas are all over, Vietnam providing some of the brightest, fiji/indo wholesale is also pretty good, There is a wholesaler who ships zoas on the acrylic square plates, you dont order them by name but they come in and are plainly twizzlers, jungle juice, 24k etc. Again they dont get those names until the boutique shops give it to them.

For your LFS they need to spread across several vendors for variety, or go with a frag specific vendor.
 
I have been ordering a lot of boxes recently in order to find pieces I have not been able to find, and to get species I never see for sale. Local stores here are across to order acros because they can't keep them long-term if they don't sell and when they do there is o my a few to choose from.
I really like what is coming from figi and Indo areas. To get the good stuff you have to spend a lot more and buy from the people who are culturing the nice stuff. They ship less often and boxes go pretty quick sometimes. But every piece is a nice one, a lot are some of the new named pieces. When I order a box from other maricultured places there will be one or two nice ones and the rest "regular" stuff with some cool species mixed in. I don't order from wholesalers so nothing is graded. You never know what you will get. Do it long enough and you will be able to have a lot of nice stuff.
The problem with some of newer "vendors" like bread corn or whoever is they also sell average run of the mill corals with extremely high price tags. Newer people don't know any better and pay up. I could buy a box or two of acros with the money it takes to buy a few frags from these types of "collectors". It really rubs me the wrong way. But that's what you get when you buy from someone who has a big name but has only been in the hobby for a few years.
 
I have been ordering a lot of boxes recently in order to find pieces I have not been able to find, and to get species I never see for sale. Local stores here are across to order acros because they can't keep them long-term if they don't sell and when they do there is o my a few to choose from.
I really like what is coming from figi and Indo areas. To get the good stuff you have to spend a lot more and buy from the people who are culturing the nice stuff. They ship less often and boxes go pretty quick sometimes. But every piece is a nice one, a lot are some of the new named pieces. When I order a box from other maricultured places there will be one or two nice ones and the rest "regular" stuff with some cool species mixed in. I don't order from wholesalers so nothing is graded. You never know what you will get. Do it long enough and you will be able to have a lot of nice stuff.
The problem with some of newer "vendors" like bread corn or whoever is they also sell average run of the mill corals with extremely high price tags. Newer people don't know any better and pay up. I could buy a box or two of acros with the money it takes to buy a few frags from these types of "collectors". It really rubs me the wrong way. But that's what you get when you buy from someone who has a big name but has only been in the hobby for a few years.

Thanks for the insight. I tried to PM you, but looks like your inbox is full.
 
I won't knock capitalism and someone being able to make ludicrous margins from "ordinary" stuff. If someone pays it that is their problem. It's not disingenuous if you have a nice picture and a high price. There are a lot of other factors at play, though:

The reality is that the market isn't "actually" as exciting as the hobby thinks it is. There are, as a rough generalization, 100 different species that end up getting imported, and there are a few different morphs of most of them, but there is not "1" super rare multicolored acro in the wild and someone was lucky enough to find that "1." The "ultra" graded ones might trickle in, but when "Retailer A" names his ultra find "Acro A" and then "Retailer B" gets literally the exact same coral and names it "Acro B" we have a problem. This happens over and over and over. It's laughable when you think about it.

For example, how many "green and pink" Acropora Millepora varieties do you think there are that are presently "named" in the industry? Dozens? How many "actually" different, genetically diverse, examples do you think there really are?

To phrase it another way, if we look at exporters in Indonesia, there are many of them, but they are diving the same reefs (or within miles of each other), at each locale (Bali, Jakarta, etc.). If two different wholesalers each find an orange hued A. Millepora they might each export 100 a year, so those 200 pieces (hypothetical numbers) went to 200 different retailers/chop shops/hobbyists "in the game", whatever. They might ALL be the same actual genetic specimen, or there might be several different ones, but there are not 200 total unique genetic specimens here on our end, not even close.

The overlap of named corals has reached critical mass for me, personally. I've been doing this 20 years now and have been in both the hobby and industry (I've worked in aquaculture, for retailers, etc...and now work in international exports in another industry) and I can tell you that the hobbyist market is based primarily on a facade. "Retailer A" with his "Acro A" is charging $100/inch and "Retailer F" has no name because he isn't an "sps guy" (or lacks the marketing savvy to pull off what Retailer A is doing) and chops his up for $30/chunk at his fish store because he's still making 300% profit, but these two corals are literally the same. Now, of course, the only way you can "guarantee" you are getting "Acro A" is to buy it from "Retailer A" or someone with lineage, but there's a good chance you could find the "exact" same specimen with some hunting and some luck.

Not to pick on one species, but multicolored A. Tenuis are really "hot" right now. You see all sorts of trade names out there (Walt Disney, etc.). But these are coming in as maricultured chunks and there are hundreds coming in. The "market" value is artificially inflated. Worse yet, many retailers are chop shopping these and there is a serious misperception as to what the customer is really getting (people seem to think these frags are tank raised from an original secret single colony or something....absolutely laughable). It's a maricultured tenuis and the collector/exporter is sitting on 300 more! But that won't stop certain people from making their huge margins while the supply is artificially constrained and demand is high.....and truly....good for them.

The other disconcerting issue has already been mentioned, which is when someone takes something that already has a trade name and just gives it another name. This happens over and over again.

At least there was honesty in the game when Tyree was at the top. He would say, "this came from ____ and we are calling it ____." That's pretty much all out the window now.

To give proper deference to the situation I don't want to discredit the fact that there are a handful of genetic "freaks." Take the original "Purple Monster." It is/was truly a unique specimen, though they did "rediscover" it and are importing more (from Solomon Islands). There are others in that category, but if you add up all of the top marketing savvy retailers (again, I don't name names) and their total collective specimen list there are not actually "hundreds" of genetic freak corals, more like a couple handfuls. Many of these can be found with ease by getting a box or two out of Indo or Australia (depending what species you are looking for).

So there it is. This all might sound a little cynical, but people need to hear it. I love that these marketing savvy guys are pulling this off; my hat is off to them.

Improving the hobby should be the main goal, though. The hobby would truly be improved with a different direction that supports species identification and locale/collection points that ship with each specimen.

I would much rather have an "A. Lokani, purple morph, Marau Sound reef, Solomon Islands, 1999" than a "Purple Monster." That is my hope for the industry....someday.
 
Well said, Acro-ed. Another aspect of the retail side of the hobby that is fueling these "hot" named frags is the very low barriers of entry into the market of fragging and selling corals. Anybody with an established reef and an instagram account can sell corals from their living room. Because of the abundance of professional and semi professional frag farmers out there, one needs to differentiate. Just about the only way to do that in this hobby is to acquire the hottest stuff. If a fragger has the cash flow, he can acquire a frag of WD for a grand figuring in a few months he can start selling one or two frags a month and quickly recoup his investment and start turning a handsome profit until the market because saturated. Then, it's on to the next hot piece. Rinse and repeat!

I would venture to guess that most of the early adopters of a new high end strain expect to recoup at least a portion of the "investment" in such a piece by fragging it once it starts growing well.

Red Dragon is a case study in supply and demand. I think it showed up on the scene about 2011 and I remember first seeing it at our local annual frag swap for $250 for the tiniest 1/4" piece and only a couple of guys had it. A year later at the same swap it's going for $150 for a 3/4" - 1" frag and a bunch of sellers have it. A year later yet, it's going for $75 for a healthy chunk. Turns out this stuff grows pretty quickly! A few months ago I got a good sized frag for my tank for 20 or 30 bucks. You can still pay 2-3x that from a big name online retailer, but they have more overhead to cover and have probably decided it's better to sell one piece at $50 profit than five at $10 profit. And it preserves the allure and stature of the named corals.

Point is, it's too damn easy to grow SPS now! To acro-ed's point, take one source colony, chop it into 100 pieces, put it in 100 different tanks with varying water parameters, lighting, and flow, then have 10 different photographers capture and post process in a variety of lighting conditions, and all of the sudden you have 5000 different frags ripe to be named something ridiculous like Asteroid Combo Breaker.
 
Acro-ed, I am with you on the naming of corals, it would be nice to know what, where and when things came from. But I would guess that acropora genetics runs a little more in depth than your portraying. But I do get your point, there are things involved in genetics of coral besides color. A color may be the "same" but genetics could be different and one piece may be a slow grower yet the next moderate grower and the next very fast.

Also 8 years ago where were these multicolored pieces? There are new acros out there to be found for sure. Just because people dive the same reefs sometimes doesn't mean they have inspected every coral on it. But again, I get what your saying and thanks for chipping in. A lot of people do see the hobby the way the wholesalers and coral collectors want them to see it. I hope things change before everything is just a name and everyone has lost the idea that there are species names.
 
good info in this thread. My take on it is, LED and good photography skills, people don't buy the coral, they buy the pictures. Many of the coral, Zoanthids especially look like crud under a 10k bulb and even worse under a 6500K bulb. Same Zoas under RB LED sold for 100 a polyp. There's many other corals that got a name after LED that otherwise would have sat at the wholesaler. Here's an example got to Golden Marindo dot com and looks at the awesome colored up Acropora. Then got to Bali Aquarium dot net and look at the same species without the fancy pictures. I don't know where I am going with this but I haven't gotten caught up in the hype yet. I still love buying or even better trading for inexpensive maricultured frags. Even the ugliest one is still pretty cool to watch grow out
 
Half the fun is seeing how those brown cheapo frags color up under good care. I couldn't imagine spending big money on a frag that arrives dull and stressed from shipping and then spending the next year waiting for it to ever look like it did in that thumbnail image online!
 
Thanks for the education! Really puts a light on what I had kind of perceived. In watching some of the FB pages with coral auctions and bids approaching Super Bowl ticket pricing, its just insane. Maybe some can afford this, but I can find better use for those "wasted" dollars! Just my (only) 2 cents!

David

I won't knock capitalism and someone being able to make ludicrous margins from "ordinary" stuff. If someone pays it that is their problem. It's not disingenuous if you have a nice picture and a high price. There are a lot of other factors at play, though:

The reality is that the market isn't "actually" as exciting as the hobby thinks it is. There are, as a rough generalization, 100 different species that end up getting imported, and there are a few different morphs of most of them, but there is not "1" super rare multicolored acro in the wild and someone was lucky enough to find that "1." The "ultra" graded ones might trickle in, but when "Retailer A" names his ultra find "Acro A" and then "Retailer B" gets literally the exact same coral and names it "Acro B" we have a problem. This happens over and over and over. It's laughable when you think about it.

For example, how many "green and pink" Acropora Millepora varieties do you think there are that are presently "named" in the industry? Dozens? How many "actually" different, genetically diverse, examples do you think there really are?

To phrase it another way, if we look at exporters in Indonesia, there are many of them, but they are diving the same reefs (or within miles of each other), at each locale (Bali, Jakarta, etc.). If two different wholesalers each find an orange hued A. Millepora they might each export 100 a year, so those 200 pieces (hypothetical numbers) went to 200 different retailers/chop shops/hobbyists "in the game", whatever. They might ALL be the same actual genetic specimen, or there might be several different ones, but there are not 200 total unique genetic specimens here on our end, not even close.

The overlap of named corals has reached critical mass for me, personally. I've been doing this 20 years now and have been in both the hobby and industry (I've worked in aquaculture, for retailers, etc...and now work in international exports in another industry) and I can tell you that the hobbyist market is based primarily on a facade. "Retailer A" with his "Acro A" is charging $100/inch and "Retailer F" has no name because he isn't an "sps guy" (or lacks the marketing savvy to pull off what Retailer A is doing) and chops his up for $30/chunk at his fish store because he's still making 300% profit, but these two corals are literally the same. Now, of course, the only way you can "guarantee" you are getting "Acro A" is to buy it from "Retailer A" or someone with lineage, but there's a good chance you could find the "exact" same specimen with some hunting and some luck.

Not to pick on one species, but multicolored A. Tenuis are really "hot" right now. You see all sorts of trade names out there (Walt Disney, etc.). But these are coming in as maricultured chunks and there are hundreds coming in. The "market" value is artificially inflated. Worse yet, many retailers are chop shopping these and there is a serious misperception as to what the customer is really getting (people seem to think these frags are tank raised from an original secret single colony or something....absolutely laughable). It's a maricultured tenuis and the collector/exporter is sitting on 300 more! But that won't stop certain people from making their huge margins while the supply is artificially constrained and demand is high.....and truly....good for them.

The other disconcerting issue has already been mentioned, which is when someone takes something that already has a trade name and just gives it another name. This happens over and over again.

At least there was honesty in the game when Tyree was at the top. He would say, "this came from ____ and we are calling it ____." That's pretty much all out the window now.

To give proper deference to the situation I don't want to discredit the fact that there are a handful of genetic "freaks." Take the original "Purple Monster." It is/was truly a unique specimen, though they did "rediscover" it and are importing more (from Solomon Islands). There are others in that category, but if you add up all of the top marketing savvy retailers (again, I don't name names) and their total collective specimen list there are not actually "hundreds" of genetic freak corals, more like a couple handfuls. Many of these can be found with ease by getting a box or two out of Indo or Australia (depending what species you are looking for).

So there it is. This all might sound a little cynical, but people need to hear it. I love that these marketing savvy guys are pulling this off; my hat is off to them.

Improving the hobby should be the main goal, though. The hobby would truly be improved with a different direction that supports species identification and locale/collection points that ship with each specimen.

I would much rather have an "A. Lokani, purple morph, Marau Sound reef, Solomon Islands, 1999" than a "Purple Monster." That is my hope for the industry....someday.
 
So how do you get hooked up ordering these from the wholesaler? I'd buy a box (or chip in on one) not knowing what is coming in just to get some bigger pieces than frags.

I'm new SPS, not saltwater, and my favorite is the green slimer. lol
 
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