TheGodParticle
New member
3 or so posts above he says its always been under LEDs it was started that way.
Who has really colorful acros under leds?
- Thread starter DarkStalker
- Start date
3 or so posts above he says its always been under LEDs it was started that way.
Well godparticle glad I could crack you up, but you happen to have a few things wrong. I first started my comment with how good his tank looked. I was just blow away though at the coverage and found it interesting that just yesterday there was a RB post about coverage. I am also finding it interesting that when people compare a led set up to others that we are starting to learn or see that people almost needs as much or more leds in term of wattage to get amazing results. Most tanks that I have seen with colorfully sps have a lot of leds over it and the idea of just a 70w fixture lighting a 2 x 2 area which is what some manufactures claim is proving not to be right. As for me you also have it wrong. I have had only leds over my tanks for the last two years. I too started using only 3 x 60w cree white blue fixtures for my 6 foot 210. I found that this was no where near enough coverage. So I add another 3 multi color 108w units. All units by eshine. Now I had made the switch over from a 4 foot 6 bulb tek elite fixture lighting the same tank. I can tell the t5 was still brighter and I could grow corals better than with all that leds over it. I had a purple cap that remained purple and grew like a weed on the sandbed at 29 inch down. With leds I had to move it up to the top 3rd of the tank in order for it to have the same result as it was not growing and browning out. I have upgrade the tank but sadly lost all my coral in the move. Since then though three of my drivers have gone in my unit and instead of buying new units I have decided to change my lighting to MH and led combo. I do think we are still in the learning tweeking stages of leds and in 3-5 years it will be prefected.
tdb320reef
Active member
Leds
Leds
Guys lets keep it nice. We are all here to learn and the reason for my contribution is not to say T5 and MH are not great but with everything equal you have a pay a premium. The opportunity here with LEDS and the purpose of my post is to say you can still get great colors and cost savings with LEdS.
I would like to note one thing that I do find interesting with my LED rig is that with the coverage and high par that the corals do look better under MH. I ran a experiment where I purchased a 6" tall blue tort colony from friend running 400 watt MH over his 300 gallon. When I got it it was solid blue the top base stem and all. deep corvette blue. After I put it in my tank the top remains the deep blue but the stem that is shaded is a brownish blue a typical indication it is not getting the light. I put my par meter on it and the top is getting 500. I put the coral on an angle and the side toward the light turns bue but the bottom remains blue/brown. So what is this all about? Well I know it sounds crazy but it seems like the light from LEDS does not bend (REFRACT) or bend as well as it does from MH and T5.
I needed more evidence of this to I powered up Netflix and watched a couple Einstein documentaries. One experiment he disclosed is to look at a branch in sunlight from a distance and you see the branch disappear as the light bends around the branch. So I said okay. I took the blue tort out put it on my kitchen Island with a 120 fixture in front of it. Based on observation from the limited distance of the house I couldn't see evidence of the light bending around the coral.
Therefore my hypothesis is that a key issue of LED is not only coverage but how the light bends. Einstein theorized that light that starts out fast and slows down has a tendency to bend or refract. Light that starts out slow and then speeds up has a tendency to reflect.
So there call me crazy but I think a major hidden issue with LEDS it the ability for the light to refract. For this reason I try to keep all of my corals on an angle for the maximum coverage.
Please don't bash but I am agreeing that T5 and MH are better for total coverage including light refraction but there are techniques that will keep SPS happy under LED. Also please realize that I am not a scientist but it is just and Idea or theory. Unfortunately I came up empty handed on others that have such an Idea or theory. Could I be the first?
Leds
Guys lets keep it nice. We are all here to learn and the reason for my contribution is not to say T5 and MH are not great but with everything equal you have a pay a premium. The opportunity here with LEDS and the purpose of my post is to say you can still get great colors and cost savings with LEdS.
I would like to note one thing that I do find interesting with my LED rig is that with the coverage and high par that the corals do look better under MH. I ran a experiment where I purchased a 6" tall blue tort colony from friend running 400 watt MH over his 300 gallon. When I got it it was solid blue the top base stem and all. deep corvette blue. After I put it in my tank the top remains the deep blue but the stem that is shaded is a brownish blue a typical indication it is not getting the light. I put my par meter on it and the top is getting 500. I put the coral on an angle and the side toward the light turns bue but the bottom remains blue/brown. So what is this all about? Well I know it sounds crazy but it seems like the light from LEDS does not bend (REFRACT) or bend as well as it does from MH and T5.
I needed more evidence of this to I powered up Netflix and watched a couple Einstein documentaries. One experiment he disclosed is to look at a branch in sunlight from a distance and you see the branch disappear as the light bends around the branch. So I said okay. I took the blue tort out put it on my kitchen Island with a 120 fixture in front of it. Based on observation from the limited distance of the house I couldn't see evidence of the light bending around the coral.
Therefore my hypothesis is that a key issue of LED is not only coverage but how the light bends. Einstein theorized that light that starts out fast and slows down has a tendency to bend or refract. Light that starts out slow and then speeds up has a tendency to reflect.
So there call me crazy but I think a major hidden issue with LEDS it the ability for the light to refract. For this reason I try to keep all of my corals on an angle for the maximum coverage.
Please don't bash but I am agreeing that T5 and MH are better for total coverage including light refraction but there are techniques that will keep SPS happy under LED. Also please realize that I am not a scientist but it is just and Idea or theory. Unfortunately I came up empty handed on others that have such an Idea or theory. Could I be the first?
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Anybody ever ask the higher end farmers and collectors at shows what they keep their own high end SPS under? Ever ask them what kind of lighting the best looking client tanks use? Ask them if they think that there is such a thing as too much good light? Most of them stay out of the discussions online (and they should), but ask around...
You need to see a lot of tanks in person to make up your mind using other tanks that you have seen for a basis of comparison, including your own tank. I take about 100-500 photos a day as part of my job and I and can make them show, or hide, anything... especially when posted online where the same image can look terrible on some cheapo corp monitor and look amazing on a Retina display. I don't think that anybody is intentionally trying to deceive, or anything, but there rarely a baseline for a reasonable comparison.
I know which is better for me, after spending lots of dough trying different things. There is probably no "better," just different.
You need to see a lot of tanks in person to make up your mind using other tanks that you have seen for a basis of comparison, including your own tank. I take about 100-500 photos a day as part of my job and I and can make them show, or hide, anything... especially when posted online where the same image can look terrible on some cheapo corp monitor and look amazing on a Retina display. I don't think that anybody is intentionally trying to deceive, or anything, but there rarely a baseline for a reasonable comparison.
I know which is better for me, after spending lots of dough trying different things. There is probably no "better," just different.
tdb320reef
Active member
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I Would consider myself a high end collector. Having tank going back to the 90's and I think I received my answers and the results show.
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I Would consider myself a high end collector. Having tank going back to the 90's and I think I received my answers and the results show.
tdb320reef
Active member
brad65ford
New member
This is a good subject alone. i would definitely follow along that thread.
Thanks tdb for sharing that with us. So maybe there needs to be a look and the reflector or a change in the optics used for leds to better match what corals need. Its that shading from the point source, exspecially from a narrow spectrum point soucre could be one issue for acros and color. Would be interesting is some how we can contain multiple colors of leds in one be optic or reflect instead of having each led with its on individual one. Like I said before there just a couple things that just have to be worked out to be perfected.
TheThirstyWhale
New member
TDB....Beautiful Tank!
tdb320reef
Active member
That is a good point, I wonder if this is also true with Kessils. I would think that one solution is to place the leds in a 3 dimension form factor and like the previous gentleman mentioned use reflectors around then optics..
I won a reefbrite 24" fixture and it seems to have this design with a led on the front and both sides backed by a reflector. the one 20W 24" fixture does a great job lighting my 36 X 24" fuge. Maybe they are on to something!
Putting multiple colors in one package is old hat; Orphek has been doing this for a long time and many others. My DT light is a 5 channel 100 x 3w emitter, all in a single package about the size of a silver dollar. The actual light emitting area is 1" square.
I agree with needing better reflection for LEDs, or a grid of smaller emitters with plenty of side lighting. I find it helps to put the light at a proper height; the circle of light from the reflector/lens should be approximately the size of your tank where it hits the water. You waste some light this way but you get a good amount of reflectance off the glass (if you keep it clean).
It should be possible to build a lightbulb or MH style optic; the use of this and a MH sized reflector would be perfect. I don't know of any such optic for high power LEDs; they do exist for 3w emitters but that's hardly practical.
I agree with needing better reflection for LEDs, or a grid of smaller emitters with plenty of side lighting. I find it helps to put the light at a proper height; the circle of light from the reflector/lens should be approximately the size of your tank where it hits the water. You waste some light this way but you get a good amount of reflectance off the glass (if you keep it clean).
It should be possible to build a lightbulb or MH style optic; the use of this and a MH sized reflector would be perfect. I don't know of any such optic for high power LEDs; they do exist for 3w emitters but that's hardly practical.
DarkStalker
New member
Well, just to be clear the best way to use leds is with a enormous amount of light maybe even more than halides?
What's the point ir we need that?
What's the point ir we need that?
jg93
New member
No, that's the opinion of a handful of posters. I have just 2 AI Sol Blues over my 75g and my SPSs - while still small (I've bought tiny frags, most are less than 6 months old) are all growing and colored just fine. I have bright blues, greens, teals, purples, jades - acros, milis, sylos, montis, torts, birdsnests... all fine.)
IMO frags take a long time to acclimate to these lights, especially if they are maricultured or spent a long time under t5's or MH. But once they do, they're fine. It's an opinion shared by many here. Frankly, every time I hear LEDs don't work my mind hears 'get off my lawn'
jg93
New member
FWIW - the tank above, which is f'ing fantastic - may need all those LEDs as a result of this:
"Many hobbyists tried to use inexpensive no-brand Chinese LEDs in the pure actinic range. However, their efficiency is low and, as a result, the crystal deteriorates quickly due to overheating. Worst of all, this deterioration is hard to estimate visually, since the eye's sensitivity in 420nm range is very poor. Besides, spectral distribution of such low-quality LEDs can be very wide (from 350nm in the ultraviolet range, and up to green light): these longer wavelengths affect the visibility of coral fluorescence."
from: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/10/aafeature
"Many hobbyists tried to use inexpensive no-brand Chinese LEDs in the pure actinic range. However, their efficiency is low and, as a result, the crystal deteriorates quickly due to overheating. Worst of all, this deterioration is hard to estimate visually, since the eye's sensitivity in 420nm range is very poor. Besides, spectral distribution of such low-quality LEDs can be very wide (from 350nm in the ultraviolet range, and up to green light): these longer wavelengths affect the visibility of coral fluorescence."
from: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/10/aafeature
tdb320reef
Active member
If you are referencing my tank. I need all of those leds to cover an 8 X 2.5 foot tank. I have been growing LEDS with cheep Chinese leds without 350 to 420nm and my SPS have been growing just fine.
power boat jim
Well-known member
No, that's the opinion of a handful of posters. I have just 2 AI Sol Blues over my 75g and my SPSs - while still small (I've bought tiny frags, most are less than 6 months old) are all growing and colored just fine. I have bright blues, greens, teals, purples, jades - acros, milis, sylos, montis, torts, birdsnests... all fine.)
IMO frags take a long time to acclimate to these lights, especially if they are maricultured or spent a long time under t5's or MH. But once they do, they're fine. It's an opinion shared by many here. Frankly, every time I hear LEDs don't work my mind hears 'get off my lawn'
Ill second this, I have some maricultured pieces that I got 3 months ago. They turned brown for a couple months and are now turning ice blue. Others dont change color they just stop growing for 3-4 months and then carry on from there. It just seems to be a test of patients more then anything.
Gary Majchrzak
Team RC
really colorful Acros under LEDS
really colorful Acros under LEDS
where are all the pix?
really colorful Acros under LEDS
where are all the pix?
tdb320reef
Active member
Pics
Pics
*Id like to note the tank just turned 1 year old. I started collecting SPS in Nov 2011 mostly 1" or less frags. Those were grown under leds in a 90 gallon grow out system and moved to the 320G Aug 2012.
Had some time at lunch today:
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/sdAcabRnO5U" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
2/2012
Pics
*Id like to note the tank just turned 1 year old. I started collecting SPS in Nov 2011 mostly 1" or less frags. Those were grown under leds in a 90 gallon grow out system and moved to the 320G Aug 2012.
Had some time at lunch today:
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/sdAcabRnO5U" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
2/2012
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JPMagyar
New member
T,
First off let me add to the chorus of voices saying "Wow!". Your tank and your skills as a designer, builder, and reefkeeper are stupendous. Thanks for sharing! Yours is the kind of LED lit tank that I've been wanting to see and one that brings me closer to someday pulling the trigger and changing my own system.
Now, a couple items for the thread . . .
1) Light is light is light. I realize Einstein talked about bending light, but that was in reference to massive gravitational pull which unless you have a hidden black hole in your tank is not what you are seeing.
2) How light is produced is a major factor in what you are witnessing. The nature of LEDs is to produce highly directional beams of light which is the exact opposite of metal halide lighting and fluorescent lighting. This is why we have fancy reflectors surrounding our T5 lamps. The net effect of this is to create scattered light versus flashlight like beams.
3) LEDs produce narrow spectrums of light relative to other common light sources used in home aquariums and much of the subtle changes we see are due to how this narrow light is reflected and how it stimulates growth of certain colors or not.
So what's my point. Well I simply want to make sure that folks reading through this thread understand that all light refracts using the same laws of physics and no light that we use in our home "bends".
Now back to the colorful LED SPS tank thing. . .
Did I mention I think your tank is Friggin' Awesome!
First off let me add to the chorus of voices saying "Wow!". Your tank and your skills as a designer, builder, and reefkeeper are stupendous. Thanks for sharing! Yours is the kind of LED lit tank that I've been wanting to see and one that brings me closer to someday pulling the trigger and changing my own system.
Now, a couple items for the thread . . .
1) Light is light is light. I realize Einstein talked about bending light, but that was in reference to massive gravitational pull which unless you have a hidden black hole in your tank is not what you are seeing.
2) How light is produced is a major factor in what you are witnessing. The nature of LEDs is to produce highly directional beams of light which is the exact opposite of metal halide lighting and fluorescent lighting. This is why we have fancy reflectors surrounding our T5 lamps. The net effect of this is to create scattered light versus flashlight like beams.
3) LEDs produce narrow spectrums of light relative to other common light sources used in home aquariums and much of the subtle changes we see are due to how this narrow light is reflected and how it stimulates growth of certain colors or not.
So what's my point. Well I simply want to make sure that folks reading through this thread understand that all light refracts using the same laws of physics and no light that we use in our home "bends".
Now back to the colorful LED SPS tank thing. . .
Did I mention I think your tank is Friggin' Awesome!
