Who's dosing vodka? And why?
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herring_fish
Crazy Designer
Growth of Population
Growth of Population
Murry,
Yes, I am talking about a white cloudiness in the water. Opaque? Well yes. It looks like smoke. Since I don’t skim the bacteria out, it stays in the water column longer than I thing other tanks would see. That’s OK and expected, even preferred since I want it around for food or a link in a chain.
I would like to have a “dark/cryptic zone†with a benthic zone at the bottom. What I don’t know is how the introduction of carbon sources like vodka will interact with powder and live food dosing.
I would assume (and that’s where I get in trouble) that vodka fosters bacterial growth but before it is consumed it might reduce the impact of adding phytoplankton. Introducing any kind of reef bugs that might feed on this soup and other zooplankton might require proper timing.
Many of the readers of this thread follow the schedule that has been laid out earlier in this thread. If that is follow, how fast does the bacteria population expand? How long will it live if the carbon source is removed. Of course that would depend on the other nutrient levels in the tank. Assuming that they have been brought down to very low levels, we could drop that out of the equation.
So when I ask about a bloom cycle, that’s kind of what I mean. I am going to start looking for some graph on the subject. There are a lot of other factors that would complicate this issue so I think that, anyone that might be able to answer this question, would probably decline to do so. I am just looking for an educated gut feeling response to the timing of dosing in a longer chain.
Growth of Population
Murry,
Yes, I am talking about a white cloudiness in the water. Opaque? Well yes. It looks like smoke. Since I don’t skim the bacteria out, it stays in the water column longer than I thing other tanks would see. That’s OK and expected, even preferred since I want it around for food or a link in a chain.
I would like to have a “dark/cryptic zone†with a benthic zone at the bottom. What I don’t know is how the introduction of carbon sources like vodka will interact with powder and live food dosing.
I would assume (and that’s where I get in trouble) that vodka fosters bacterial growth but before it is consumed it might reduce the impact of adding phytoplankton. Introducing any kind of reef bugs that might feed on this soup and other zooplankton might require proper timing.
Many of the readers of this thread follow the schedule that has been laid out earlier in this thread. If that is follow, how fast does the bacteria population expand? How long will it live if the carbon source is removed. Of course that would depend on the other nutrient levels in the tank. Assuming that they have been brought down to very low levels, we could drop that out of the equation.
So when I ask about a bloom cycle, that’s kind of what I mean. I am going to start looking for some graph on the subject. There are a lot of other factors that would complicate this issue so I think that, anyone that might be able to answer this question, would probably decline to do so. I am just looking for an educated gut feeling response to the timing of dosing in a longer chain.
murraycamp
Member
Questions that need further investigation would be:
___________________________
In what zone does vodka promote bacterial growth?
Wouldn't that be strain-dependent? In other words, do different strains establish biofilms in different locations? WHat is the role of epipelagic bacteria?
_____________________________
Does ethanol act as a stimulation molecule on bacteria?
What do you mean by stimulation? Is that the same thing as "feeding"?
________________________________
Is there a dose threshold to activate bacterial proliferation?
Wouldn't that depend on the exact proportions of specifically identifiable strains?
________________________
Is there a synergistic effect on adding multiple carbon sources on nitrate/phosphate reduction?
Excellent question. What would an experiment to examine this look like?
________________________________
Is there a threshold in which corals will expel their zooxanthellae from ethanol?
Or acetic acid, or glucose-fructose disaccharide, or other carbon sources? Does the threshold change when the ratio of multiple carbon sources changes?
_______________________________
What species are promoted in vodka dosing? And are these different than sugar or vsv dosing?
It seems that is the (initial) $20,000 question.
_____________________________________
___________________________
In what zone does vodka promote bacterial growth?
Wouldn't that be strain-dependent? In other words, do different strains establish biofilms in different locations? WHat is the role of epipelagic bacteria?
_____________________________
Does ethanol act as a stimulation molecule on bacteria?
What do you mean by stimulation? Is that the same thing as "feeding"?
________________________________
Is there a dose threshold to activate bacterial proliferation?
Wouldn't that depend on the exact proportions of specifically identifiable strains?
________________________
Is there a synergistic effect on adding multiple carbon sources on nitrate/phosphate reduction?
Excellent question. What would an experiment to examine this look like?
________________________________
Is there a threshold in which corals will expel their zooxanthellae from ethanol?
Or acetic acid, or glucose-fructose disaccharide, or other carbon sources? Does the threshold change when the ratio of multiple carbon sources changes?
_______________________________
What species are promoted in vodka dosing? And are these different than sugar or vsv dosing?
It seems that is the (initial) $20,000 question.
_____________________________________
That's not correct though. Most vinegar is produced by the reaction of methanol to carbon monoxide. With many other means of production.
Vodka is mostly made from starch rich grains but sugar can be used.
herring_fish, those are some very complex questions. :eek1: We could probably talk for years on just those questions.
Murraycamp, yes the questions just keep coming. On stimulation with ethanol, I meant can it be used as a signaling molecule to cause a dynamic change in bacterial function aside from solely food. Food can act to stimulate growth but can ethanol serve more functions than just food?
murraycamp
Member
:fun4:
Ahhhhhhh.
:thumbsup:
melev
Well-known member
Re: Growth of Population
Re: Growth of Population
I would be concerned that the opaque look of the water is actually oxygen depleted water. You can measure dissolved oxygen with an ORP meter, and in your particular tank, that might be a very wise idea. Obviously the vodka is interacting with the water causing that visual look, and I see it within the hour of dosing, but I have two skimmers on my system dumping in oxygen rich water the entire time. One is a beast of a skimmer, the other is its backup.
Based on the article Nathan co-wrote, the point of the vodka is to provide food to have more bacteria in the system. By removing that dosing, the bacterial population will drop accordingly, and odds are quickly. This is similar to how we see boom or bust pod populations in our tanks. We feed a lot and there are tons of pods, and then suddenly you can't find hardly a one. The population exceeded the food available, and it collapses rather suddenly.
The way I grasp the vodka dosing, is that we already have a specific volume of bacteria in the tank. If the vodka increases that population by 10 or even 20%, we have more bacteria to consume waste and leftover food in the tank before it can break down. If that is correct, then PO4 and NO3 levels no longer rise and even drop because of the lessened presence in the water, as well as the skimmer exporting them.
If you were to dose Phytoplankton two hours before dosing Vodka, that would be the best window to shoot for. It would be 22 hours since the last dose.
A cryptic zone may not work so well, only in that I see some strange growth (wispy hairy growth) in areas of very low flow, and on my grounding probes. You might encounter the same. It may not be a problem unless it grows into a mat or cocoon, which you could watch out for.
Re: Growth of Population
I would be concerned that the opaque look of the water is actually oxygen depleted water. You can measure dissolved oxygen with an ORP meter, and in your particular tank, that might be a very wise idea. Obviously the vodka is interacting with the water causing that visual look, and I see it within the hour of dosing, but I have two skimmers on my system dumping in oxygen rich water the entire time. One is a beast of a skimmer, the other is its backup.
Based on the article Nathan co-wrote, the point of the vodka is to provide food to have more bacteria in the system. By removing that dosing, the bacterial population will drop accordingly, and odds are quickly. This is similar to how we see boom or bust pod populations in our tanks. We feed a lot and there are tons of pods, and then suddenly you can't find hardly a one. The population exceeded the food available, and it collapses rather suddenly.
The way I grasp the vodka dosing, is that we already have a specific volume of bacteria in the tank. If the vodka increases that population by 10 or even 20%, we have more bacteria to consume waste and leftover food in the tank before it can break down. If that is correct, then PO4 and NO3 levels no longer rise and even drop because of the lessened presence in the water, as well as the skimmer exporting them.
If you were to dose Phytoplankton two hours before dosing Vodka, that would be the best window to shoot for. It would be 22 hours since the last dose.
A cryptic zone may not work so well, only in that I see some strange growth (wispy hairy growth) in areas of very low flow, and on my grounding probes. You might encounter the same. It may not be a problem unless it grows into a mat or cocoon, which you could watch out for.
murraycamp
Member
Re: Re: Growth of Population
Re: Re: Growth of Population
Marc raises good points. O2 depletion is a concern and indicates an overdose.
What are you trying to accomplish with the cryptic zone that would not be addressed by a refugium?
Re: Re: Growth of Population
Marc raises good points. O2 depletion is a concern and indicates an overdose.
What are you trying to accomplish with the cryptic zone that would not be addressed by a refugium?
SirVilhelm
Member
I am keeping an eye on this thread, I've always have had a problem with Nitrates. Hopefully this will be the answer to my problem.
Sisterlimonpot
Premium Member
Armed with the information in RK magazine, a good skimmer and some patience is all you need.
SirVilhelm
Member
I have a Coralife Super Skimmer 220 running on my 80gal setup. Although I've read some people really don't the Coralife brands I've never had a problem and it always seems to do a good job pulling crap out of the water.
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Any reason why this setup wouldn't work for vodka dosing?
melev
Well-known member
Honestly, that skimmer is not super. That's all I'm saying. I've tinkered with a few of them trying to get them working better, and it wasn't plausible right out of the box.
The LFS by me sells a lot of them, but he's been encouraging unhappy customers to get a decent air pump and forcing air into the pump's intake to get better foam in the body of the skimmer. You might opt to do the same. The airpump, tubing, and that little bit of electricity could make all the difference.
SirVilhelm
Member
Good suggestion, I will give that a try. I have all three so no lose to me.
murraycamp
Member
Yes, that is not uncommon. Cyano can feed on the carbon source(s) as well. I have seen it surmised that it also may be from localized release/processing of nutrients by heterotrophic bacteria. My experience has been that it wains substantially after you achieve very low nutrient conditions.
Are you using VSV? I noticed less cyano when I lowered the vinegar and sucrose components. I also have had success with Zeozym.
Before I started dosing carbon, I used Chemi-Clean with good results, but have not used it on a probiotic system.
melev
Well-known member
My tank has had a little bit of cyano in a few spots for many months, if not all of them. It is a little annoying, because I don't want to see a trace of it. However, to treat my tank for cyano bacteria, you have to turn off the skimmer for three days. Vodka dosing doesn't allow it.
Genetics and one other guy treated with something that turned the water green even while dosing vodka, but never stated the name of the product. I'd really like to find out what it was so I can nuke this stuff finally.
Genetics and one other guy treated with something that turned the water green even while dosing vodka, but never stated the name of the product. I'd really like to find out what it was so I can nuke this stuff finally.
herring_fish
Crazy Designer
Oh! O2!
Oh! O2!
You are probably right. Thank you. I was hoping that someone that was is in the know would let us take advantage of there experience. …in a way that is both understanding and understandable.
I went out to two shops but neither place had an O2 test or tester in stock. I stopped dosing vodka about 4 days ago and the cloudiness had only decreased a little bit. Of course I did not let it get too cloudy in the first place so hopefully, all it well.
If the cloudiness is indeed the result of low oxygen, I am surprised that the dump bucket hasn’t reversed it by now, even though the algae hasn’t grown in properly yet. The water drops about two gallons, one foot through the air to make a nice splash.
As for the cryptic zone, I will probably keep the water flow up. I really don’t know enough about it yet. I have read Dynamic Aquaria and liked it very much but I only got a brief over view of Dynamic Ecomorphology from Mr. Tyree. I like the idea of an additional refugium that is different than the well lit one that will be on top of the UDSB in the sump. I am looking for as much diversity as I can get in the tank for the filter feeders. I already have the 6 foot tub and I thought that the vertical column might reveal some interesting growths, colonies and populations. It won’t be an ant farm but it might have some fun.
I expect to dose vodka only as a food course and since I will not be skimming out the bacteria, I may have to use much less of it. Thank you for your thought on this experiment.
Oh! O2!
You are probably right. Thank you. I was hoping that someone that was is in the know would let us take advantage of there experience. …in a way that is both understanding and understandable.
I went out to two shops but neither place had an O2 test or tester in stock. I stopped dosing vodka about 4 days ago and the cloudiness had only decreased a little bit. Of course I did not let it get too cloudy in the first place so hopefully, all it well.
If the cloudiness is indeed the result of low oxygen, I am surprised that the dump bucket hasn’t reversed it by now, even though the algae hasn’t grown in properly yet. The water drops about two gallons, one foot through the air to make a nice splash.
As for the cryptic zone, I will probably keep the water flow up. I really don’t know enough about it yet. I have read Dynamic Aquaria and liked it very much but I only got a brief over view of Dynamic Ecomorphology from Mr. Tyree. I like the idea of an additional refugium that is different than the well lit one that will be on top of the UDSB in the sump. I am looking for as much diversity as I can get in the tank for the filter feeders. I already have the 6 foot tub and I thought that the vertical column might reveal some interesting growths, colonies and populations. It won’t be an ant farm but it might have some fun.
I expect to dose vodka only as a food course and since I will not be skimming out the bacteria, I may have to use much less of it. Thank you for your thought on this experiment.
