Why do skinny fish die?

[billsreef]

Paul,

One of the reasons for thinking infection is that I've seen fish with very minor lesions or just some raised scales when they are first taking out of the shipping bag. These minor things appear to heal up in a couple of days, and then a week or three later that brown spot infection crops up in the very same location

swcc,

This particular issue we're discussing does not occur in fish that have been in long term captivity. It only occurs in fish that have been recently imported, most often under 4 weeks since import. It does not spread to established fish, or even other newly imported fish if in with a bunch of new acquisitions.

 

[gone fishin]

I am ignorant as to how are fish are collected. Shame on me. But do they use nets or something else. I have read about the use of cyanide. If i am following Bill correctly he suspects this may be the cause of the spots and ultimatley the death of the fish

 

[billsreef]

I am ignorant as to how are fish are collected. Shame on me. But do they use nets or something else. I have read about the use of cyanide. If i am following Bill correctly he suspects this may be the cause of the spots and ultimatley the death of the fish

It's not just nets at the point of collection, or the possible use of cyanide in some (far too many) areas. Between actual collection and ending up in the LFS they are handled multiple times...often by those in a rush to move as many fish as fast as possible. Holding at various points along the chain is often a collection of jars and buckets with many fish in each, plastic tarp lined pits or old oil drums with no filtration or temp control until the weekly trip to the exporters, crammed in exporters tanks, shipped...quite often multiple fish in a large bag, etc., etc. It's really quite amazing any make it all. That said, some collectors to better jobs of catching and holding, and some exporters and wholesalers do better jobs as well...just like some LFS are better than others.

 

[Paul B]

I think its been a long time since I've seen a debate on anything on one of these forums that didn't turn to petty insults. I don't know much about disease,

Fretfreak, thats because Bill and me are friends and are not argueing at all. I respect his opinion and I think he respects mine. We both have different experiences and both dive.
I am better looking but thats subjective
No one knows the answers to all of these questions difinitively but we can and do voice our opinions. There is no right and wrong because none of us are scientists, conducting years of pathological studies on why fish die.
I am sure some of them with this seemingly similar condition sometimes die as Bill said from a cut and subsequent infection and some died from, Oh I don't know, a Hiatal hernia (OK fish can't get that) :strange:
But you know what I mean. Almost all studies on fish are done on food fish because tropical are just important commercialy to hobbiests and in the scheme of things not that critical to the well being of the masses.
We are just discussing and having a good time. :wavehand:

But I can do petty insults if you like :lol2:

 

[swcc]

Paul,

One of the reasons for thinking infection is that I've seen fish with very minor lesions or just some raised scales when they are first taking out of the shipping bag. These minor things appear to heal up in a couple of days, and then a week or three later that brown spot infection crops up in the very same location

swcc,

This particular issue we're discussing does not occur in fish that have been in long term captivity. It only occurs in fish that have been recently imported, most often under 4 weeks since import. It does not spread to established fish, or even other newly imported fish if in with a bunch of new acquisitions.

my thought on this is still water quality. after the horribly traumatic experience of importation what better than a safe clean haven for the stressed out immune deficient fish. while paul's tank may be great for his current healthy fish it just may not be best served for a sensitive stressed fish freshly imported such as what he is experiencing. heck their may be no solution except to just chalk it up to import stressors but perhaps clean low nutrient conitions would be best served to help give the fish a stronger chance of survival from the stress. I have had lots of fish and several tanks in the last 25 years myself and the best healthiest acclimation when I introduce any fish has come from my tanks run with the lowest nutrients.

 

[Paul B]

SWCC I hear what you are saying and of course we strive for pristine water conditions.
But I feel that less than pristine water conditions can upset a fishes immune system and make it more suseptable to certain external infections and possably paracites. It may also help contribute to internal malfunctions such as swim bladder disease or fatty liver degeneration but an internal infection after a fish has beenin a tank eating and looking great for a month, I don't see it. I am not saying it can't happen. I just can't see how it could happen.
These fish I am referring to also did not have any missing scales or cuts. Cuts on a fish such as a copperband or a completely yellow fish are very hard to miss.
These fish did not have any external damage.
I guess we will never know but I will keep autopsing if I ever see it again.

 

[swcc]

yeah in our tanks less pristine means more bacteria and organics. keeping your nitrate up where ya do may be fine for a healthy fish but the biological processes that occur for the tank to be at a higher nitrate level probably affect a stressed out fish. a tank holding higher nitrate is a tank with more bacteria activity going on over a tank that is kept cleaner and does not hold a nitrate value. considering you have your bacteria, algae and skimming going on and still have those high nitrate values you tank has got to be high in organics and promoting tremendous bacterial activity. these effects culminate and have to affect the stress levels of the fish. be it the organics, processes we can't measure, o2 levels or a full culmination of all this together.

 

[gone fishin]

Paul and Bill thanks for the interesting discussion as usual I am left with more food for thought. It is truly amazing the journey the fishes take to our tanks. Given the conditions they are exposed to we may never know any cause and effect relationship. But as long as there are these types of discussions the chances of figuring out something do improve.

 

[one clownfish]

My tank has never had "pristine" water conditions, High n03 & p04. I rescued two Tangs (Purple & Sohal) that had the worst case of lateral line you've ever seen. It literally looked like someone took an ice pick to their head and a knife down their side for a cruel joke. I bought them both for $20, so that should give you an indication of how bad they were. I couldn't tell but somewhere around week 3 my five year old son said look there getting better. Fast forward 6 mths and they were in perfect condition, you couldn't find a mark on the Sohal if you tried and the purple has 1/32" wide x 1/4" scar on his side. Next month will be 4 years that I've had them both. I believe it all comes from the collection process or whatever they do/happens to them before we get them. My guess is it has something to do with the copper treatment, hypo or whatever medications they treat with. I've never lost a fish I've bought from fellow reefers(except thru predation, the eel got 3 fire fish). I know people have caught a CBB or LNB or some fish from the wild and put it their tank, has this ever happened to them?

 

[Paul B]

SWCC my reef for many years ran a nitrate reading below 10, it has only been high for the last few months while I am experimenting with something. I will lower them eventually but for now I want them about 15 or 20. I think they are closer to 35.

"one Clownfish" that is good news, I find that I can keep hippo tangs forever but they always get HLLE after four or five years in my tank.

 

[billsreef]

But I can do petty insults if you like :lol2:

Your mother was a hamster, and your father smells of elderberries

my thought on this is still water quality. after the horribly traumatic experience of importation what better than a safe clean haven for the stressed out immune deficient fish. while paul's tank may be great for his current healthy fish it just may not be best served for a sensitive stressed fish freshly imported such as what he is experiencing. heck their may be no solution except to just chalk it up to import stressors but perhaps clean low nutrient conitions would be best served to help give the fish a stronger chance of survival from the stress. I have had lots of fish and several tanks in the last 25 years myself and the best healthiest acclimation when I introduce any fish has come from my tanks run with the lowest nutrients.

I'll definitely agree that running the best possible water quality is always best. It's just this particular thing we're discussing I'm quite sure is irrelevant of the water quality of either the LFS or the hobbyist tanks. I've seen hundreds of cases of this infection in most any species of tropical ornamental fish you name, in retail systems that were getting large weekly water changes with nitrates kept under 5ppm, and the ammonia and nitrite always 0. Excellent water quality...and I was the one maintaining it, so I know...still whenever I saw this, it was doom Many professional aquarist in the trade talk about this, sadly none of us (or anyone else either) has found a treatment. I'm reasonably confident of my statements about how it starts, based on handling thousands of fish monthly when I was working in the trade (a good 20 years worth). Treatment wise, I expect the answer will be in high end antibiotics that aren't readily available to the trade or aquaculture circles.

 

[Paul B]

OK Bill, here is my updated theory and it is a fusion of both of our theories,
(jusrt to be politicaly correct and prove that we don't argue)
In capture, holding and transport fish do get banged around, we both know that.
Fish like copperbands don't have much meat on them anyway and their bones are right near the skin so they are probably more suseptable to handling issues.
(just a theory)
So the injury, even though it does not penetrate the skin causes swelling just as it would on us. That swelling, especialy on the back end which has very little flesh presses on the tiny arteries, restricting blood flow. That restricted flow causes the tissue to die causing the cells to die. The rotting tissue eventually makes it's way to the skin of the fish causing a hole to form. The hole lets in bacteria causing a massive infection killing the fish.
If the fish was shipped in high nitrate water, which they all are, the oxygen in their blood would be slightly diminished anyway from what I said at the beginning.

OK it's solved, lets go out and get a bottle of wine. :lol2:

This morning my town (North Hempstead) is hosting a free breakfast for Veterans. I don't know why, But I am going.
It was worth getting drafted now that I know I am getting a free breakfast :lmao:

 

[swcc]

Your mother was a hamster, and your father smells of elderberries

I'll definitely agree that running the best possible water quality is always best. It's just this particular thing we're discussing I'm quite sure is irrelevant of the water quality of either the LFS or the hobbyist tanks. I've seen hundreds of cases of this infection in most any species of tropical ornamental fish you name, in retail systems that were getting large weekly water changes with nitrates kept under 5ppm, and the ammonia and nitrite always 0. Excellent water quality...and I was the one maintaining it, so I know...still whenever I saw this, it was doom Many professional aquarist in the trade talk about this, sadly none of us (or anyone else either) has found a treatment. I'm reasonably confident of my statements about how it starts, based on handling thousands of fish monthly when I was working in the trade (a good 20 years worth). Treatment wise, I expect the answer will be in high end antibiotics that aren't readily available to the trade or aquaculture circles.

you guys are probably right. I figure that if there may be a way to provide the best possible way for possible recovery from that which we cannot control, this is our best bet to maybe help along one that might perish otherwise... Please note I am not only considering the readable N or P levels(one can have a dirty tank and still achieve zero), I am talking systemic cleanliness that keeps bacteria activity and organics very low.

 

[Paul B]

you guys are probably right

We like to think so, even if we are dead wrong. It comes with age.

 

[ktkreegs]

I just got this fish on Friday. Did not notice any issues right away. Then a couple hours later I thought my copperband scraped himself on his side. Is this what you are talking about Paul?

Bad side:

Good side:

iPhone pics sorry. Is this a scratch or is this guy not going to make it?
My fault or fish store?

 

[Paul B]

If it is just a scratch, it will heal and you won't notice it at all. If it turns into a lump that keeps enlarging, then yes, that is what I am talking about. Copperbands, longnose butterflies and all thin bodied fish are suseptable to it. I have seen it numerous times. Let us know if a lump forms.

 

[billsreef]

Paul, that theory could work.

OK it's solved, lets go out and get a bottle of wine. :lol2:

I've got a few bottles of Merlot left, from a friends vineyard

you guys are probably right. I figure that if there may be a way to provide the best possible way for possible recovery from that which we cannot control, this is our best bet to maybe help along one that might perish otherwise... Please note I am not only considering the readable N or P levels(one can have a dirty tank and still achieve zero), I am talking systemic cleanliness that keeps bacteria activity and organics very low.

Agreed, definitely more to water Q than just N and P.

We like to think so, even if we are dead wrong. It comes with age.

I really avoid being dead wrong. Might not always avoid the wrong part, but definitely work hard on avoiding the dead part

ktkreegs,

Hows that copperband eating? Might be the picture, but it's looking overly thin above the lateral line and just behind the head.

 

[Paul B]

That copperband (i know you don't mean mine) does look skinny and under nourished to me, I didn't want to say anything but they don't usually recover when they are that thin.
There is not much to a copperband already and they can't take losing much weight.
If you can get some live blackworms into him he may be fine.