Why do we assume a large return pump is needed?

HTK...why do you get banned so much?

About teflon vs. silicone: Silicone is BAD for thru-hulls!!! I bought a large tank and had to cut out virtually all the plumbing to free the tank from the stand because some numb-nuts had siliconed them all in. AND, if your thru hull is siliconed in and vibrates or gets knocked around to the point that it starts to leak, that becomes a real problem.

I have to patch some very poorly cut holes before I can even begin to rig the plumbing, and unlike the previous "fixes", I will use Weld-on and thick acrylic to seal off those holes rather than pools of silicone.

My tank was a shark tank with 1 corner overflow for 1000g and I am converting it to a reef tank.--J
 
Herbert and all,
This thread has been most helpful as I work to gain confidence to start my setup. Could I review a few items? If I could get just a couple of more issues ironed out, I can get on with it. (tank is 313g) My fish room is about 30' from my display location and same elevation. Although my 36" drain box is centered in my tank, I've been worried about noise. If I locate my sump/refug at a comfortable position in my fish room, say 48"s or so off the floor (I'm 6'4"), I'll gain by having very little return pump head pressure, and benefit from a much quieter overflow box. Sound good? Also, I've been very uneasy about the predrilled capacity of my drain box to my fish room. Initially I thought I had really screwed it up, but now after reading this thread I'm not so sure. I have 2, 1" drains in the overflow box which I'll manifold into one of the 2, 2" pvc lines running from display to fish room. I don't anticipate needing standpipes, so in theory I should have no problem draining 1000gph+ and returning 3x or better to the display which should cover any likely scenario I would choose in the future. OK? My third question is about chiller setup. My options are limited as I cannot (will not) install the chiller in the display tank stand off one of the two planned 1 1/2" clsd lp systems. It must be located in the fish room either off the return line or off a separate clsd loop out of the sump. I have a drop in chiller in my 55 now which works great. Should I plan a larger capacity drop in unit for my sump to simplify things with this new setup? Also, if I prescribe to the idea of less flow to/from my fish room, is my likely limiting factor going to be my ability to pull down my water temp with a drop in chiller in my sump? My hood is custom, enclosed, and tight fitting.... Even though it is vented with fans, I don't see this setup as getting by without a chiller, especially when the sun starts shining here in the summer at 3 in the morning...Thanks again
Jack
100569newtank.jpg
 
Your remote plumbing plan sounds very similar to the one I am helping set up for what seems to be a very similar tank. The main concern I see is that while a 2" drain pipe will handle thousands of gallons per hour (even at 30' away), it does require some head-pressure to do so. Since you are going to be building a sump at a very low drop compared to the main tank, you would not be able to pump as much as say, if the sump were, 3' below. OR, FWIW, what is the flow if both tank's water levels are equal...well, nothing. On the system I am working on, we are using two 2" bulkheads, and two 3" drain pipes to flow to a sump system that is 10' away, and has a water level 12-18" below that of the display. We dont know what we will be able to get for out maximum flow yet, and we are prepared to lower the sumps another 6-18" if we need to (Tank will be 24-30" tall on a 36" stand with a 18-24" square base center overflow, no standpipes, but "squat" dursos to prevent air intake, pretty much a "U" on the bulkhead...just bottom 2" bulkheads, 500g, intake sump is a 180g/24"h on a 24" stand 10' away in the next room). We are going to start with one 3000gph high flow pump as the return on a 2" return line, and go from there...maybe adding a second pump later.

Heres what I would do. Build it how you want, but be prepared to drop the sump 6-18" if your overflow isnt keeping up with the return pump. I have done the math, but there are simply too many variables, esp considering the 30' length you have. There are a few things you can do to help. You can use one size larger pipe than your pump and overflow bulkhead need. Using 2" pipe on your drain will help greatly over two 1" lines. And your return line, if it is 1" at the pump, use 1.5" until it gets to the tank to minimize loss. And heres the funny thing...pumps this size wont have a huge head loss if they have to pump up only a foot or two. Sure, for pumps that only do 500-1000gph, a 3' head and multiple elbows can drop your throughput significantly, but with 1000+ gph pumps, even if low flow...look at their power curves. Many lower pressure ones still have no problem pushing water up 12'...and 1 or 2 feet wont add up to much loss. Your overflow does seem a little restrictive for what you want to do...the only way to know for sure is to set it up and find out...being prepared to drop the sump a bit more if needed. OR, you could lower the sump throughput. DNA's sump for his 300g is only 100gph...now that might be tha extreme case, but even if you were to drop your overflow capacity to 400-600gph, thats still more than 1x the volume per hour, up to 2x. I dont think your chiller would have that hard of a time keeping up...


"Should I plan a larger capacity drop in unit for my sump to simplify things with this new setup?"

As I was reading the few sentences before this, its exactly what I was thinking as well. A drop in would simplify things...otherwise, a closed loop off of the sump would be my second choice.

Wait, Anchorage, Alaska? And you are worried about heat? Wow, must be a medeterranian current up there. FWIW, my place is run with minimal air-conditioning...in fact the fish tanks get minimal cooling..at best they get a fan blowing across the surface here in Milwaukee, and we have had many hot days here this summer.

I wouldnt be worried...unless the change in temp from the lighting/pumps on the display is so huge the chiller will be working nonstop evn with the lights off. I doubt it will be a problem. Your display volume of over 300g would require many thousand watts of lighting in the course of its daily photoperiod of about 8 hours to raise temps much. Welcome to the world of large tanks...things sort of work themselves out at this size, LOL. Not to mention, 1000 gph of sump flow from the chiller should be plenty to cool a 300g any day. Its like my pond, 3000g. It can be 100 degrees outside all day long and the hottest it will get is 85...as long as the night comes and it has a chance to cool, its fine. Now, if the nights were as warm as the days, my Koi would be screwed...but that isnt the case. This relates to your tank as well.

If you are in an extreme situation, and you want to maximize your chiller's potential, there are some things you can do. One, mount the temp probe in the main tank and the chiller in the sump. If the chiller has a hard time catching up ever, it will simply cool the sump's water to be that much cooler to compensate. This is an advantage that an in-line temp probe on a in-line chiller wont have. A drop in, with a remote temp probe will. This of course means: You will need to keep this final cooling chamber in your sump seperate from your fuge, skimmer feed, etc...as you wouldnt want that extra cooled water flowing through your refugium or frag growout tank if its plumbed from this same chamber. It might also help to try and insulate this chamber so that your freshly cooled water doesnt just end up cooling your sump room. You will not have to add extra capacity to this area however, as we are dealing with the deltas in temperature here with regards to what will be a fixed throughput...a larger volume means nothing. The added benefit of this will be that if the water that is going through your sump return pump is cooler, you will not have nearly as much calcium buildup on the internals.
 
Thanks for the well thought out reply Herbert. At this point I won't plan on adding any major capacity to my predrilled drain box. I will install all the drainbox bulkhead fittings and see if I have room enough to perhaps expand one or both of the 1" drains to 1 1/2"s within the drain box. (I have a 2" dry raceway which takes up a big chunk of the 9"x 9"sq. box). The top of my drain box is at 66"s from the floor, so It will just be a matter of playing with the fish room sump elevation to achieve the desired flow. As I understand it, this elevation will be the only limiting factor. I'm pretty sure that was the intent of your reply... that the 2, 1" drains will provide more than enough flow, as long as I have the head pressure to drain it.. Plz jump in here if I'm headed down the wrong path as this is a big ticket item for me at this juncture. Do you think 24"s between display and sump water surface elevation would be a good target for 1000gph flow from 2, 1" drains? I'm glad I went with the 2" lines back in the heat of the battle when I was building my house. It sounds like the 2" line to the sump and the 2" return to the tank will really help me pull this off without undo compromising. As far as the chiller goes, I'm all for a drop in unit. Unfortunately, I don't have any experience really to go on here so I guess that part of it will be trial and error for my particular setup, but doable at any rate. I have another question which is probably a stupid one but I have to ask. In a perfect world, would the the water overflowing into my drain box almost completely fill the box to just below the display water level? Because we are dealing with an install here which is going to let us customize the head pressure to the sump, is it possible that I could customize my return flow to produce whisper quiet overflow noise as long as all other flow requirements are met? Or is the reality of the situation the head is all created more towards the bottom of the drain box and the piping below. You mention the modified dorsos. This must mean that you are planning cascading water down to the bottom of the drain box. Feel free to have a good laugh over this one :D Thanks again!
Jack
 
You got the right idea about the sump elevation...the difference in the two water levels is the deciding factor.

As for the other things you mention...you will just have to wait and see. 30' of horizontal pipe is alot and can slow things down a bit...but not alot. Its complicated. I am going to say it should be fine...if you can expand that 1" hole to 1.5" that could help you alot. Then again, that bottleneck might just operate at a slight vacuum and not matter anyways. Its just too complicated. Your other option would be to lower the return pump's flow a little.

On the one I am working on, we are using dursos at the bottom of the overflow, but water will not cascade all the way down...maybe half way bercause the water level of the sump is 12" from the bottom of the overflow box, so the water level in the box will have 12-24" to rise to compensate depending on the final height of the tank (still debating 24" or 36" height, and 6'square base or 8'square base). The dursos in this case are just to prevent the water from making a funnel and sucking in air...but we are kind of doubting it will at this point...since there will be no vacuum farther down the drain pipe...so we may not even use it.

I wish I could give you a better idea of what your drain could handle, but you have a few too many variables. You can look in my gallery for a flow chart of water through a hole at a given depth...which suggests that there shouldnt be any problem with you having well over 1000gph through that overflow if you have the 1.5" bulkhead (with a few inches of water pressure above it)...but that chart is for free fall. It doesnt take the horizontal distance you are covering. And, what about a 1" bulkhead...???...it could restrict you to 700gph...but I am thinking that the water at that point might just get forced through....the rest of the water in the drain piping vacuuming in through to keep up with the other end...so the end result will be something in between...what it will be...I do not know exactly..it would depend on how much vacuum that the drain pipe can build up...and that will depend on your sump height relative to the display's water level. If anything, increasing the bulkhead size would eliminate that variable...but it might not be an issue.

As far as noise, that will go hand in hand with matching the flow rate of the return pump with the overflow, right? I mean, if your overflow water was trickling down the sides of the box, raise the sump!
 
Thanks Herbert,
I think in my case, it would be prudent to set the tank up in the shop. I was going to leak check it obviously after the drilling, but I think I should take it a few steps further so some of my questions can be answered before I contract the lift truck....In theory, with the 2" lines, things should go smoothly. Thanks for taking the time and answering my questions...
Jack
 
Ok, this thread has most definitely got me rethinking a few things. I'm only at the stage of filling the tank with water, so I've got a long way to go yet, but when I ran a test, the majority of the noise came from the humming of my Laguna 950gph return pump.

Now this tank is a 120gal with refugium, sump and in-sump skimmer.

From what I see here I should at a minimum be able to (if not should) halve the pump throughput, and maybe get an eheim which I hear (or don't) are very quiet indeed.

I have two Tunze 6100s on a multicontroller, so it seems I'm set with flow capacity anyway.

Your thoughts appreciated, as based on this info, I'm going to swap out the pump right away.
 
Sounds like exactly what I would do. Just be sure to match up the return with the right sized eheim pump...sometimes a 1250 might not be enough if your tank height is up there (and a 120 is pretty tall). The head loss calculator is key here.

Another option is to get the next size up, the 1260, and plumb it with a bypass valve on the outlet. This bypass can be used to feed various other equipment like a calcium reactor, phosban reactor, carbon chamber, or even to feed a recirculating skimmer. That way though, if you desire a little more flow than the 1250 can put out, you have the capability to do it.
 
Not possible. Becketts, as well as any other pressure-fed skimming design like mazzei venturi, downdraft (ETSS), and injection (AquaC), require high-pressure, high wattage pumps. This is what makes low wattage asperating venturi (needlewheel)pumps so appealing and better performers until you get into skimmers that are designed for reefs in the 300-700gallon range. Up until that point however, the needlewheel pumps have the wattage/gph advantage over any beckett style.

"Heres what I have seen. Becketts, as well as downdraft towers, mazzei, injector (AquaC) and other venturi methods require pumps that generate a good deal of pressure to run effectively. These pumps are often power hungry and generate a good deal of heat (as well as being expensive). They rarely are less than 500gph because pumps smaller than this have horrible pressure curves, and for the most part 1000gph on up are normal. This means 200 watt pumps or greater.

Asperating skimmers make just as good skimmers, but have a power advantage...to a point. Most asperating pumps are 60-80watts for a large one. An asperating pump doesnt need alot of power because it doesnt have to deal with pumping gobs of water through a tiny hole to mix bubbles...it relies on mechanical mixing rather than the venturi principle. Overall, they consume less wattage. You can find asperating venturi skimmers for nanos even...good luck finding a nano beckett, or any venturi based nano skimmer...the pump would be too small to generate goood pressure.

The Asperating skimmer's advantages go to a point however. When you start to get into skimmers that are large enough to run 300 gallons on up, you are looking at asperating models that use 3+ pumps to keep up. You also have height restrictions. Asperating venturis are more energy efficient because they dont have alot of pressure to deal with...but with larger skimmers the height starts to get to 3' on up. This height works against an asperating skimmer...it looses its pumping capacity since needlewheel impellers really dont perform well against back-pressure. This is why you dont see really tall needlewheel skimmers. Sure, Aqua Medic makes a 6' Turboflotor 5000 Twin, but for those who dont know, you have to drain the skimmer before turning it on because it cant get started with all the water in it...too much head-pressure to start sucking air in.

This is where becketts start to take the lead. Energy wise, a large euroreef is using 3+ pumps at 60-80 watts each...that starts to add up fast. All of a sudden the single 200-300watt pump that a beckett uses starts to sound good. A beckett also has no problem pumping bubbles into a skimmer that is 6' tall...its used to dealing with pressure after all. And, price-wise, a large asperating skimmer could cost you thousands...where even a large Barr skimmer is a fraction of that. So in larger skimmers, the beckett takes the lead...

There are always exceptions to the rule of course. If you want a monster asperating that many would agree could kill a beckett...look into a Bubble King by Royal Exclusiv. Also have your bank's loan officer ready."

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=5686223#post5686223

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=666796&perpage=25&pagenumber=2
 
So I just added my salt (now I see why saltwater tastes really salty) and took all the necessary measurements to ensure I got the quantity right.

Turns out the tank is only 90G (water capacity). so my pump is simply waaaay over sized for my needs.

I'm happy as a pig in poo, because I can now appease my wife when she returns from holiday with a nice quiet tank, and get brainy points by giving her a line about how complex it was to tune the system up to get rid of the gurgling and splashing noises.
 
Not yet. I'm still waiting for the tank to fill up with RO/DI water. I've got my two Tunze 6100's mixing the salt at the moment plus a couple of old heaters bring the temp up.

Once it fills the sump/fuge I'll run the 950gph pump until the end of the week to get a good salt mix. I've got a MH/T5 light hood which the T5's weren't working, so hopefully that'll be ready for me in a few days and I'll pick up a new pump while I'm there.
 
Herbert chech out the Geo club page 8 at General interat forums lighting,filtration,other equipment.dgasmd new low ele power protein skimmer and tell me what you think.
 
Airstone skimmers are very effective in the wattage area. Its a great looking skimmer. The only reason we prolly dont see more airstone skimmers is because maintaining airstones is a PITA.
 
HTK--What's so hard about maintaining airstones? Here's how I see mine going together, using lessons from a variety of sources:

The lower chamber or the entire skimmer body will be square rather than round. Why pay the big bucks for round? That way I can add a large bulkhead easily and building the body is a snap.

Using a large bulk head fitting in the flat section low in the chamber, I will put together an array of 4 - 6 long wooden airstones on rigid airlines attached to an airline manifold in a semi-tight cluster. That manifold will then attach to a bulkhead cap by drilling the cap and gluing the rigid arline into it with the airline coming out a couple of inches. Attach a high powered variable speed air pump and you're done. When you need to change or clean airstones, simply bypass the skimmer, unscrew your bulk head cap, pull the airstones out, and do what needs to be done.

Let's say I use a 4" bulkhead, how many airstones can I get into my array? More than enough I think! Seems easy enough to me.--J
 
It's not so much "getting to them" that is a pain.. it is the fact that you have to do it so often. I surely have no desire to build or buy truckloads of airstones. I would love to have the simplicity of a DIY CC skimmer... but dread the airstone maintenance.

Bean
 
Please...maintaining airstones is light-weight compared to many other tank issues. Airstones are incredibly cheap compared to top-notch brand name skimmers, and when one needs replacing, there's no 2 month delay.

BTW, for anyone interested, I just posted some photos to my gallery. Some are of a 70g planted that I experimented with handi-foam on, and I am really pleased with the results. That may be a very good way to deal with my reef. Also in there a 3 shots of my reef tank in waiting.--J

Gallery:
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showgallery.php?ppuser=83322&cat=500&thumb=1
 
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